Originally posted by Mountain Man
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False Idol � Why the Christian Right Worships Donald Trump
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"If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship
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Originally posted by seanD View PostI think most of what you're describing (at least what's legitimate) is pretty much how the wealthy elite, including those in government, typically operate. The reason the actions of Trump is exposed is because no political figure has ever been this much under the microscope. Therefore, since most government figures operate this way and this is how the system itself operates, Christians would have to disengage entirely from politics, especially politics on a national level.
And I don't have to disengage from politics to call out wrongdoing when I see it. It's not as simple as an either/or support Trump in everything versus ignore politics."If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship
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Originally posted by myth View PostI think it's so exposed because Trump hasn't been a political figure until now, and he's too arrogant or stupid to bother trying to hide it.
And I don't have to disengage from politics to call out wrongdoing when I see it. It's not as simple as an either/or support Trump in everything versus ignore politics.
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Originally posted by myth View PostAll pretty well established fact, you're just unwilling to believe. Some of what I wrote about is literally on audio recordings that have been aired publicly. Some have vast amounts of documentation combined with admissions Trump's lawyers have made in court. I'll waste no further effort trying to convince the willfully ignorant.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostI'm familiar with everything you're talking about, so your accusation that I'm "willfully ignorant" misses its mark. The point is, simply listing incidences that involve Donald Trump does not prove that everything you happen to believe about those incidences is necessarily true, which is why I said I'm not obligated to accept the hidden assumptions within your post."If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship
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Originally posted by seanD View PostThings have become politically tribal, so it's difficult to criticize Trump when the left does this constantly, relentlessly, nonstop, for things that are both legit and things that are not legit. I personally don't have a problem doing it, but I can understand how it's a delicate matter for others. You don't want to give even an inch to the left when the political environment has become this tribal. I think the main concern for us as Christians is that the left has gone so far radically left -- with direct threats against both the first and second amendments, among other things -- that we don't have much of a choice in this case. It's critical we don't allow a Dem to get into office at this point, because then it's pretty much game over."If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship
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Originally posted by demi-conservative View PostAre you going to become another sanctimonious ass? We already have enough posters crying 'it's not a good look'.
seanD is making the best pseudo-pro-Trump arguments here, but I'm still not convinced that the failure to call out sin by evangelicals is justified. But at least he's making reasoned arguments, which I respect.Last edited by myth; 12-07-2019, 06:36 PM."If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship
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Originally posted by myth View PostNo, but Mountain Man doesn't get to pretend to have settled the argument when he didn't really make an argument at all. "I reject your facts" is a terrible argument. Just because my opinion isn't popular doesn't make me an ass. But be careful who you call an ass, lest you look like one yourself.
Some of the accusations that 'Orange Man Bad' are hard to establish. 'He refused to pay some contractors, boohoo', we all know stories of terrible contractors and Trump's side of the story is that he refused to pay them because they did bad work and therefore broke the contract. It would be natural for many such stories to exist, since Trump built a lot of buildings and must have hired thousands of contractors. How are we to judge the truth without looking at the contract, and whatever service the contractors provided? It's impossible, and taking these seriously demonstrates your gullibility.Last edited by demi-conservative; 12-07-2019, 06:38 PM.Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.
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Originally posted by demi-conservative View PostWhy should he refute when you've provided no evidence?
Some of the accusations that 'Orange Man Bad' are hard to establish. 'He refused to pay some contractors, boohoo', we all know stories of terrible contractors and Trump's side of the story is that he refused to pay them because they did bad work and therefore broke the contract. How are we to judge the truth without looking at the contract, and whatever service the contractors provided? It's impossible, and taking these seriously demonstrates your gullibility."If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship
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Originally posted by myth View Post...you aren't even refuting the accusations...Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by demi-conservative View PostWhy should he refute when you've provided no evidence?
Some of the accusations that 'Orange Man Bad' are hard to establish. 'He refused to pay some contractors, boohoo', we all know stories of terrible contractors and Trump's side of the story is that he refused to pay them because they did bad work and therefore broke the contract. It would be natural for many such stories to exist, since Trump built a lot of buildings and must have hired thousands of contractors. How are we to judge the truth without looking at the contract, and whatever service the contractors provided? It's impossible, and taking these seriously demonstrates your gullibility."If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship
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Originally posted by myth View PostHe hasn't even really denied them, he's avoided talking about them. If he asked for proof, I'd bother to spend my time gathering it. Honestly though, I doubt he's interested in that proof, so why waste my time.Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.
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Originally posted by myth View PostNo, but Mountain Man doesn't get to pretend to have settled the argument when he didn't really make an argument at all. "I reject your facts" is a terrible argument.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by demi-conservative View PostIf you have no proof, why do you think you've established anything? You've not made an actual argument, so yes, in your words MM gets to "pretend to have settled the argument when he didn't really make an argument at all", and "I reject your facts" because you've established nothing with zero proof, as you admit."If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship
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