Whistleblower identified

[RumTumTugger]

I wonder how you avoid 'self-righteousness' when you denigrate another person's faith in Christ - especially when you have no clue what their actual theology actually is?

[Mat 7:4-5 NKJV] 4 "Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank [is] in your own eye? 5 "Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

isn't that what you've been doing to Trump and those of us who won't follow lockstep into orange man bad Trump is evil lies and condemn him without evidence?

[Mountain Man]

I wonder how you avoid 'self-righteousness' when you denigrate another person's faith in Christ - especially when you have no clue what their actual theology actually is?

As Shakespeare famously wrote, "Thou dost protest too much methinks."

[firstfloor]

Says the guy who religiously watches Rachael Maddow, one of the biggest promulgators of conspiracy theories on television.

I swear you're being self-contradictory on purpose.

[rogue06]

How about because if he did what Trump requested, he would have to be participating in manufacturing false information about a potential leader of the US whose support he will continue to need for the foreseeable future.

At no point was Trump asking anyone to manufacture evidence. No even remotely close. He merely asked Zelensky about reports that Joe Biden had stopped the investigation into his son and could he look into that.

But I guess if you squint just right and set your jaw just so the words magically morph into what the "whistleblower" claimed was said I guess you can likewise imagine that Trump was demanding a dossier full of wildly ridiculous and false claims be cooked up (you know, like the Democrats actually did fabricate concerning him).

[oxmixmudd]

Oxmix Opinion is not Evidence and what you stated that I bolded is OPINION. You have not brought any evidence to back up your opinion. all you and the Democrats have is something gotten third had about the feelings people had about the phone call and even the one person who was there only stated his feelings and we only have the later because someone leaked his opening statement to the press. Last I heard Feelings about what is going on is also opinion and not fact or evidence.

That is where the evidence leads Rum - but I can't make you accept it. It is what it is. I have outlined some of that evidence in other posts, perhaps in another thread, and I can outline it again if you really need to see it. however I certainly am not going to be like most Trump followers and just say only what Trump wants to hear, nor will I give it a bunch of spin like we see on the conservative rags.

[rogue06]

What's your take on why the two Democrats defected? It's interesting that anytime there is a vote "down party lines", it's the Republicans' fault for being obstructionists, but here you actually have two Democrats breaking ranks and voting with the Republicans.

Most likely because they are in districts that Trump won and see themselves as being out of work come next November if they participate in Schiff's circus.

I heard one Democrat yesterday state that he wishes that the vote in favor of investigating impeachment had been "more bipartisan." Well it couldn't have possibly been any less bipartisan and in fact the only bipartisanism there is happened to be against continuing the circus.

[oxmixmudd]

At no point was Trump asking anyone to manufacture evidence. No even remotely close. He merely asked Zelensky about reports that Joe Biden had stopped the investigation into his son and could he look into that.

As I pointed out in the rest of the post you eliminated in your reply:

Or perhaps more generally, it is in the best interests of any country needing us aid not to take sides in our political process. He needs to stay neutral so that any incoming administration is only motivated by US policy and commitments, not personal grudges or loyalties.

What you are calling lying is him just making sure he doesn't create bad blood between himself and the current leader of the us. Just like not going after biden to appease trump is not cutting himself off if trump loses 2020.

A delicate game with someone as unprincipled as Trump

I recognize there was no explicit request for manufactured information. And I'm not suggesting Trump asked for manufactured information. But anytime you put a condition like 'investigate my political rival for corruption' on 400 million dollars in aid, you run the risk of getting manufactured information. Fortunately, Zelinsky appears to have known better.

But I guess if you squint just right and set your jaw just so the words magically morph into what the "whistleblower" claimed was said I guess you can likewise imagine that Trump was demanding a dossier full of wildly ridiculous and false claims be cooked up (you know, like the Democrats actually did fabricate concerning him).

You took my words out of context rogue. That was a worst case and as I point out not an unreasonable risk or potential result, but the general reasons, the ones that apply no matter what, are in the remainder of my post. Try to be a bit more objective in your replies please.

[rogue06]

Because that would put Ukraine's bipartisan support in congress at risk, as he's been advised repeatedly on the odd chance it wasn't obvious, and as emphasized in opening statements released to the press.

Vindman:

Taylor:

On September 5, I hosted Senators Johnson and Murphy for a visit to Kyiv. During their visit, we met with President Zelenskyy. His first question to the senators was about the withheld security assistance. My recollection of the meeting is that both senators stressed that bipartisan support for Ukraine in Washington was Ukraine's most important strategic asset and that President Zelenskyy should not jeopardize that bipartisan support by getting drawn into U. S. domestic politics.

I had been making (and continue to make this point to all of my Ukrainian official contacts. But the push to make President Zelenskyy publicly commit to investigations of Burisma and alleged interference in the 2016 election showed how the official foreign policy of the United States was undercut by the irregular efforts led by Mr. Giuliani.

That's, at best, a strong argument against cursory examinations. But that's likely too charitable by half.

If you wish to post on these issues sans embarrassment, you're going to have to bite the bullet, give up your addiction to fringe partisan media, and spend the time more profitably by following more reliable sources.

First I'll note that Taylor's testimony has been pretty much contradicted by other cherry-picked witnesses.

Second, it is mind numbingly easy to have claimed virtually anything since it isn't like any contradictory evidence could be successfully subpoenaed. It's a reason why documents offered from other governments in matters like this are viewed with a jaundiced eye by security experts.

[oxmixmudd]

As Shakespeare famously wrote, "Thou dost protest too much methinks."

Oh contraire! I do not protest nearly enough when it comes to the twisting you do to the words of and the denigration you heap on those who disagree with you.

[rogue06]

As I pointed out in the rest of the post you eliminated in your reply:



I recognize there was no explicit request for manufactured information. And I'm not suggesting Trump asked for manufactured information. But anytime you put a condition like 'investigate my political rival for corruption' on 400 million dollars in aid, you run the risk of getting manufactured information. Fortunately, Zelinsky appears to have known better.




You took my words out of context rogue. That was a worst case and as I point out not an unreasonable risk or potential result, but the general reasons, the ones that apply no matter what, are in the remainder of my post. Try to be a bit more objective in your replies please.

I wasn't arguing against your second point but was far more interested in your apparent claim, as you put it, that "if he did what Trump requested, he would have to be participating in manufacturing false information."

[oxmixmudd]

First I'll note that Taylor's testimony has been pretty much contradicted by other cherry-picked witnesses.

Second, it is mind numbingly easy to have claimed virtually anything since it isn't like any contradictory evidence could be successfully subpoenaed. It's a reason why documents offered from other governments in matters like this are viewed with a jaundiced eye by security experts.

How ironic since you support almost continuously an administration that is doing its dead level best to make us no better.

[rogue06]

There will be a vote on impeachment well before the next election, and after that vote, no one will care to remember how people voted on a process issue. It's the vote on impeachment which will figure in political ads, and in the history books.

And more, that's not the vote people will remember, either.

It's only the vote in the Senate that counts.

But those two votes could well influence how other votes go down. If nothing else those two votes provide a modicum of cover for anyone else thinking about defecting.

So it isn't how they'll be remembered but what role they played in shaping future votes that counts.

[rogue06]

How ironic since you support almost continuously an administration that is doing its dead level best to make us no better.

Only true when you discount reality in favor of a cherished narrative.

[Cow Poke]

But those two votes could well influence how other votes go down. If nothing else those two votes provide a modicum of cover for anyone else thinking about defecting.

So it isn't how they'll be remembered but what role they played in shaping future votes that counts.

They can also impact who controls the majority in the House come this next election.

[rogue06]

They can also impact who controls the majority in the House come this next election.

It appears at least these two figured that if they went along with the Schiff circus that there would be two more House seats in Republican control come 2020.