Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

Elizabeth Warren's Pregnant Pause

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
    Good point. I recall before the election people were worried that Trump would pretty much immediately plunge America into a nuclear war with North Korea. He's actually done quite well on that, I agree.




    The bolded sentence shows that you're mixing opinion with facts, Sam. There's simply no way that you (or anyone) can show that to be objectively true. Short of writing a (large) book about it. You'd have to show what Trump's personal desires are, and that they're not what his political desires are, for a start. That would involve significant analysis of his public and private statements. Then you'd need to show how he's acting on these personal desires rather than for political goals, and that there's no overlap between the two. And then you'd have to repeat that for all the other modern Presidents - Nixon /Kennedy/ Johnson / Ford / Carter / Clinton / the Bushes / Reagan / Obama, somehow quantify how much they used the executive branch for their own desires and angers... ... and use that to show your statement is true.


    It might well be true (but Obama and the IRS springs to mind) - but the point is you're conflating your negative opinions of Trump with facts, and that's not objective.

    Your last sentence is admirable as an ideal - but just how well do you live up to it? Not as well as you perhaps think.


    Edit to add: I should add that when someone consistently and pretty much exclusively weighs in on one side of the political divide, no matter what the issue, that does raise the question of how much he is a partisan rather than an objective analyst.

    IOW, don't be the shunyadragon of Civics - 'I'm not an atheist (Democrat fanboi), it's just that all your arguments for God suck (the Democrats are the only ones with real morals and fighting for what's right)'

    No, I believe it absolutely can be shown to be objectively true and keeping good company with a number of American historians hasn't dissuaded me of that belief. We simply haven't had anything like this in modern history - not the subversion of the DOJ, not the corruption of State Department, not the reliance on "acting" agency members or the gutting of career officials and staff, not the blackout of Pentagon accountability.

    It may be an opinion as opposed to what we might call "plain fact" but it's certainly an objective opinion that actually draws its inference from an unprecedented set of facts.

    The "Obama/IRS" thing is another point in favor of what I'm saying: people who bring it up simply didn't follow the story to where the facts led. The IRS, as we eventually discovered, was "targeting" progressive SuperPAC groups just as much as conservative ones. The facts out of that story led to an agency suddenly overwhelmed by the Citizens United decision struggling to find an expeditious way to separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. Which brings me to your last point: most of these things aren't fundamentally opinions on the partisan divide. That's your framing but if there are such things as facts and if those facts make one opinion or inference more rational than another then it is not partisan to advocate for the rational inference. And the fact that the "partisan divide" keeps changing on this front, as right-leaning and conservative people like David Frum, Max Boot, and George Will get lumped into the same side as Warren or Obama or Bill Clinton should serve as a warning that just because people might make a thing partisan doesn't mean it fundamentally is that way.

    In any case, the basic fact remains the same: this is a cynicism. It's no good to simply project partisanship onto an issue when the issue can be rationally resolved. In this case, Warren is telling a set of stories that can easily be understood to be parts of a consistent whole. If someone wants to do the same thing for a story Trump tells, they're free to assemble the pieces and see if they fit. But there is a truth and it's more important that people work for that truth than just looking at things as yet another partisan squabble.

    --Sam
    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sam View Post
      No, I believe it absolutely can be shown to be objectively true and keeping good company with a number of American historians hasn't dissuaded me of that belief. We simply haven't had anything like this in modern history - not the subversion of the DOJ, not the corruption of State Department, not the reliance on "acting" agency members or the gutting of career officials and staff, not the blackout of Pentagon accountability.

      It may be an opinion as opposed to what we might call "plain fact" but it's certainly an objective opinion that actually draws its inference from an unprecedented set of facts.

      The "Obama/IRS" thing is another point in favor of what I'm saying: people who bring it up simply didn't follow the story to where the facts led. The IRS, as we eventually discovered, was "targeting" progressive SuperPAC groups just as much as conservative ones. The facts out of that story led to an agency suddenly overwhelmed by the Citizens United decision struggling to find an expeditious way to separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. Which brings me to your last point: most of these things aren't fundamentally opinions on the partisan divide. That's your framing but if there are such things as facts and if those facts make one opinion or inference more rational than another then it is not partisan to advocate for the rational inference. And the fact that the "partisan divide" keeps changing on this front, as right-leaning and conservative people like David Frum, Max Boot, and George Will get lumped into the same side as Warren or Obama or Bill Clinton should serve as a warning that just because people might make a thing partisan doesn't mean it fundamentally is that way.

      In any case, the basic fact remains the same: this is a cynicism. It's no good to simply project partisanship onto an issue when the issue can be rationally resolved. In this case, Warren is telling a set of stories that can easily be understood to be parts of a consistent whole. If someone wants to do the same thing for a story Trump tells, they're free to assemble the pieces and see if they fit. But there is a truth and it's more important that people work for that truth than just looking at things as yet another partisan squabble.

      --Sam
      And you offer up more opinion. Fun fact, history is heavily influenced by the personal opinion of the writer.
      "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
      GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

      Comment


      • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
        And you offer up more opinion. Fun fact, history is heavily influenced by the personal opinion of the writer.
        Here you offer up just another excuse not to listen to that which you don't already agree with or believe. How about trying to understand what has been said and then, if you still disagree with it, offer something substantial as a counter to it?


        Jim
        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

        Comment


        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          Here you offer up just another excuse not to listen to that which you don't already agree with or believe. How about trying to understand what has been said and then, if you still disagree with it, offer something substantial as a counter to it?


          Jim
          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

          Comment


          • I still see what you are saying as more of an excuse than anything else. The things Trump is doing are wrong on so many levels that there is almost no chance anyone will be vindicated at some future time when history looks 'kinder' at him. I believe the far more likely outcome is that historians will marvel at how, once again, a large number of seemingly decent people have become blinded to obvious wrong in the face of a charismatic public figure.

            Jim
            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

            Comment


            • OK, do Pol Pot.
              "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

              Comment


              • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                I still see what you are saying as more of an excuse than anything else. The things Trump is doing are wrong on so many levels that there is almost no chance anyone will be vindicated at some future time when history looks 'kinder' at him. I believe the far more likely outcome is that historians will marvel at how, once again, a large number of seemingly decent people have become blinded to obvious wrong in the face of a charismatic public figure.

                Jim
                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                  OK, do Pol Pot.
                  Yes because Trump is totally planning your execution. Your tin foil hat is showing.
                  "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                  GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                    Yes because Trump is totally planning your execution. Your tin foil hat is showing.
                    Either your premise and statement are correct -- that history as a discipline lacks objectivity and you can legitimately "make anyone look good or bad, depending on who I ask, what I choose to highlight, or choose to downplay" or it isn't.

                    Your response demonstrates that you know it isn't.

                    --Sam
                    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                      Either your premise and statement are correct -- that history as a discipline lacks objectivity and you can legitimately "make anyone look good or bad, depending on who I ask, what I choose to highlight, or choose to downplay" or it isn't.

                      Your response demonstrates that you know it isn't.

                      --Sam
                      How would a supporter of Pol Pot describe him?
                      "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                      GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                      Comment


                      • Look in the mirror pix.

                        There are clear and absolute standards by which we can show this president is. In fact, much worse than any in my lifetime at least. The reason you can't see that is all the things you are accusing me of.
                        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                          Look in the mirror pix.
                          Irony at its finest.

                          There are clear and absolute standards by which we can show this president is. In fact, much worse than any in my lifetime at least. The reason you can't see that is all the things you are accusing me of.
                          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                          Comment


                          • With Trump you are excusing the inexcusable, and with me you are inventing evil motives that do not exist.

                            When you can respond to the points I raise without doing either of the above, you will be on a better path. If you must do the above to handle what I am saying, then you are definitely on the wrong path.

                            Jim
                            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                              With Trump you are excusing the inexcusable, and with me you are inventing evil motives that do not exist.
                              When you can respond to the points I raise without doing either of the above, you will be on a better path. If you must do the above to handle what I am saying, then you are definitely on the wrong path.
                              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                              Comment


                              • to be motivated by anger and especially hatred directed at an individual is an evil motivation. Or have you redefined hatred as no longer sinful?

                                So you had indeed assigned evil motives to my comments.

                                And I think you just made my case regarding the mirror ...
                                My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                                If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                                This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by Cow Poke, Yesterday, 01:19 PM
                                9 responses
                                64 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post seanD
                                by seanD
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, Yesterday, 12:23 PM
                                22 responses
                                93 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Cow Poke  
                                Started by Cow Poke, Yesterday, 11:46 AM
                                16 responses
                                116 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Stoic
                                by Stoic
                                 
                                Started by seer, Yesterday, 04:37 AM
                                23 responses
                                109 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post seanD
                                by seanD
                                 
                                Started by seanD, 05-02-2024, 04:10 AM
                                27 responses
                                156 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post seanD
                                by seanD
                                 
                                Working...
                                X