Gun Control - moved from E-cig thread

[rogue06]

Jim, can you explain the difference between an AR-15 or like an AR-15 and other semi-automatic rifles?

[oxmixmudd]

Ah so the AR15s are magic? I am tired arguing with you about this Jim. If you want to kill a lot of people quickly, especially indoors, you would do better with a handgun. The recoil isn't that bad. Why do you think cops use handguns instead of rifles. Easier to carry, quicker to deploy, especially indoors, and you can shoot them quickly and they are deadly. That's all you need. Using an AR15 is just literal overkill. It looks scary and that is what the shooter is going for: scaring their victims. These teens are not looking for some magic combination of recoil and power and choosing an AR15. They are going for shooting and scaring as many people as possible until they are stopped. They are not ballistic geniuses. I am not even a good shooter and I can fire my 9MM at a target 20 feet away rapidly, about 2-3 rounds per second and hit the target every time, despite the recoil. And these mass shooters are not even rapid firing. They are walking through a school, popping rounds off into crowds, then walking on and shooting more. Until they are stopped.

What part of "LIKE an AR15" are you not grasping?

What part of "there may be other weapons even more optimal" eludes you?

Cops train Sparko. I've told the story before of a lady friend we had that was attacked in her home, she got a pistol, and the guy returned and she unloaded it on him and every bullet missed. And yes, you can use a pistol if you want to. I'm really not about banning AR15's, I'm about putting up some tough controls on guns period. And like Pix said, ENFORCE the laws we have. And COMMUNICATE between agencies and medical staff when a person is showing signs of violent behavior. One thing I've heard that makes sense is that there is a strong correlation between domestic abuse and gun violence. So maybe it's time to take guns away from people that are abusing their spouses. How many times do we hear about an jilted lover chasing down his girlfriend or ex wife and shooting her the people near her and then himself.

There just need to be common sense laws governing the ownership of firearms. Safety training. the use of gun safes and locks. Restrictions based on violent behavior that have real teeth (mandatory jail time of you've beaten your wife and are found with a weapon on you, or of you leave a gun where a child or teenager can get to it) etc etc.


I think law abiding, sane, stable people can handle guns just fine. But they do not need to be in the hands of unstable personalities, or unsupervised minors. And part of that is making them harder to get, so that only sane, law abiding, stable people have them.


Jim

[oxmixmudd]

My 9mm Ruger has a 17 round magazine.

yeah, glock 17 has 17, and their magazines are interchangeable, so you can use a 17 in a gun designed for 15. Heck, you can (could) get a 30 round magazine.

Jim

[Sparko]

You are missing the point. It's 3x what you get out of a 357 magnum! That is the point. Pistols (most/all?) can't create that kind of kinetic energy. Rifles tended to be heavy or have lots of recoil or have a low number of shots before reloading. lightweight, easy to use and shoot rifles with low recoil but very high supersonic muzzle velocities create that magic balance need to require little training but enable a person to kill a lot of people easily. Especially with hollowpoint or other more deadly ammunition. So a shot from a 357 through the thigh is not going to have nearly the probability to tearing the femoral artery and fracturing the bone. A 45 hollow point might, but then the kick is bad enough it's a lot harder to hit moving targets or fire multiple rounds. And so on. There is more than one factor here, there are many factors that are much closer to optimal with something like an AR15 than with pistols or higher power but lower capacity rifles.

And I said LIKE the AR15. There may be other weapons, maybe even a lot of other weapons, that are even MORE optimal, but less well known or less easy to acquire.

But that said - access to ALL of them would need to be controlled.

And honestly, after looking at the stats, you could make a case for tougher restrictions on high capacity magazines for semi-automatic pistols, and some states do limit them to 10 rounds.


Jim

Ah so the AR15s are magic? I am tired arguing with you about this Jim. If you want to kill a lot of people quickly, especially indoors, you would do better with a handgun. The recoil isn't that bad. Why do you think cops use handguns instead of rifles. Easier to carry, quicker to deploy, especially indoors, and you can shoot them quickly and they are deadly. That's all you need. Using an AR15 is just literal overkill. It looks scary and that is what the shooter is going for: scaring their victims. These teens are not looking for some magic combination of recoil and power and choosing an AR15. They are going for shooting and scaring as many people as possible until they are stopped. They are not ballistic geniuses. I am not even a good shooter and I can fire my 9MM at a target 20 feet away rapidly, about 2-3 rounds per second and hit the target every time, despite the recoil. And these mass shooters are not even rapid firing. They are walking through a school, popping rounds off into crowds, then walking on and shooting more. Until they are stopped.

[oxmixmudd]

roguetech has a 30 shot revolver

[ATTACH=CONFIG]39769[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]39770[/ATTACH]

Reloading would take a while ...

Robin: holy revolving chambers batman - what is THAT!

bang bang bang bang ... bang bang

Batman: Hold on Robin, If I remember correctly ... that particular weapon had 30 shots. lets see 28, 29, 30 ... go

<Biff> <Blatt> <Zing> <Smack>

Robin: Well, we got him Batman. Wait till Commissioner Gordon sees THIS!

[oxmixmudd]

1. It isn't an assault weapon, by assault "style" it merely is talking about cosmetics.
2. The kinetic energy of a 223 is pretty much low end for a rifle. A shotgun has over 3 times as much.



And dead is dead. at close range you will die from a 9mm as dead as from a .223 from an AR-15.

3. The "general class the AR15 fits into" is middle of the road for a rifle. Nothing special.

4. You can shoot a pistol as fast as you can an AR15. And it is easier to maneuver in tight quarters, like indoors, where most mass shootings take place. And aiming is not a problem because these shooters are not carefully aiming their AR15s. They are just pointing and shooting at very close range.

There is no reason to make special regulations for AR15s.

You are missing the point. It's 3x what you get out of a 357 magnum! That is the point. Pistols (most/all?) can't create that kind of kinetic energy. Rifles tended to be heavy or have lots of recoil or have a low number of shots before reloading. lightweight, easy to use and shoot rifles with low recoil but very high supersonic muzzle velocities create that magic balance need to require little training but enable a person to kill a lot of people easily. Especially with hollowpoint or other more deadly ammunition. So a shot from a 357 through the thigh is not going to have nearly the probability to tearing the femoral artery and fracturing the bone. A 45 hollow point might, but then the kick is bad enough it's a lot harder to hit moving targets or fire multiple rounds. And so on. There is more than one factor here, there are many factors that are much closer to optimal with something like an AR15 than with pistols or higher power but lower capacity rifles.

And I said LIKE the AR15. There may be other weapons, maybe even a lot of other weapons, that are even MORE optimal, but less well known or less easy to acquire.

But that said - access to ALL of them would need to be controlled.

And honestly, after looking at the stats, you could make a case for tougher restrictions on high capacity magazines for semi-automatic pistols, and some states do limit them to 10 rounds.


Jim

[rogue06]

My 9mm Ruger has a 17 round magazine.

roguetech has a 30 shot revolver

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[Sparko]

Not when it comes to reload or capacity. 6 shots typically, then you pop the bullets out and put 6 more in one at a time. A true semi automatic, you pop out the empty clip, slide in the new one, chamber the first round , and you're ready for another 10 or more shots (9MM GLOCK)

I do distinguish between a single murder and mass murder.

Jim

My 9mm Ruger has a 17 round magazine.

[Sparko]

1) The AR15 is a specific and well known example of semi-automatic assault style rifle. It is by no means the only such gun that needs regulating.

2) The Ar15 has more kinetic energy in its bullet than any pistol you've listed, but has the kick of a 22 LR. this means the gun can be kept pointed at the target as rounds are fired quickly without a great deal of training.

3) I have not made specific claims to what needs to be regulated, excepting the general class of rifle that AR15 rifle fits into. So I've not made any comments leaving out more powerful semi-automatics. But I don't think we would want to include a single shot 30.06 into the mix just because it is 'more powerful'. Raw power is not the primary consideration.

4) Pistols are held in the hands, not up against the shoulder, and have much less recoil absorption capability, and they tend to be less accurate due to their shorter barrels, shooting position, and higher recoil.

Hollowpoints are incredibly destructive no matter what their source. But that is more about the ammunition and how that should be regulated.

Jim

1. It isn't an assault weapon, by assault "style" it merely is talking about cosmetics.
2. The kinetic energy of a 223 is pretty much low end for a rifle. A shotgun has over 3 times as much.



And dead is dead. at close range you will die from a 9mm as dead as from a .223 from an AR-15.

3. The "general class the AR15 fits into" is middle of the road for a rifle. Nothing special.

4. You can shoot a pistol as fast as you can an AR15. And it is easier to maneuver in tight quarters, like indoors, where most mass shootings take place. And aiming is not a problem because these shooters are not carefully aiming their AR15s. They are just pointing and shooting at very close range.

There is no reason to make special regulations for AR15s.

[seer]

I do distinguish between a single murder and mass murder.

Jim

You do I don't. Dead is dead.

[rogue06]

Not when it comes to reload or capacity. 6 shots typically, then you pop the bullets out and put 6 more in one at a time. A true semi automatic, you pop out the empty clip, slide in the new one, chamber the first round , and you're ready for another 10 or more shots (9MM GLOCK)

I do distinguish between a single murder and mass murder.

Jim

Speed loaders have been around for many decades^[1] and were used regularly by law enforcement back when they carried revolvers.

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1. 140 years actually. From the 1879 patent for the first:

00000000000000ab000-00aad.jpg

[oxmixmudd]

Well first Jim, even a revolver is semi automatic. Second, I don't distinguish between mass shooting and regular murder. Dead is dead. And the fact is most mass shootings done with a long rifle could have been done with a pistol - except the Las Vegas thing. Far more people are killed in this country by pistols as opposed to long rifles. As I said when we actually had a national ban on "assault rifles" 1994-2004 there really wasn't much, if any, effect.

Not when it comes to reload or capacity. 6 shots typically, then you pop the bullets out and put 6 more in one at a time. A true semi automatic, you pop out the empty clip, slide in the new one, chamber the first round , and you're ready for another 10 or more shots (9MM GLOCK)

I do distinguish between a single murder and mass murder.

Jim

[lilpixieofterror]

I believe that Mohamed Lahouaiej-Bouhlel more than demonstrated this back in July 2015 when he mowed over hundreds of people in Nice, France using a cargo truck resulting in 86 dead and 458 injured.

[lilpixieofterror]

1) The AR15 is a specific and well known example of semi-automatic assault style rifle. It is by no means the only such gun that needs regulating.

2) The Ar15 has more kinetic energy in its bullet than any pistol you've listed, but has the kick of a 22 LR. this means the gun can be kept pointed at the target as rounds are fired quickly without a great deal of training.

3) I have not made specific claims to what needs to be regulated, excepting the general class of rifle that AR15 rifle fits into. So I've not made any comments leaving out more powerful semi-automatics. But I don't think we would want to include a single shot 30.06 into the mix just because it is 'more powerful'. Raw power is not the primary consideration.

4) Pistols are held in the hands, not up against the shoulder, and have much less recoil absorption capability, and they tend to be less accurate due to their shorter barrels, shooting position, and higher recoil.

Hollowpoints are incredibly destructive no matter what their source. But that is more about the ammunition and how that should be regulated.

Jim

And yet, many more die from being shot by handguns vs rifles.

[rogue06]

Well first Jim, even a revolver is semi automatic.

Most are. There are still a few single action revolvers out there.