Gun Control - moved from E-cig thread

[Sparko]

In a school shooting, a person could do just as much or more damage with any other gun than an AR15. A handgun, shotgun, or any semi-auto rifle. But the AR15 looks like a military weapon so it is evil and must be banned.

[lilpixieofterror]

I went to Walmart with the intention of buying a gun last week as part of an investigation into the placement, selection, marketing, and security of firearms in Walmart's stores, and to learn more about the retailer's processes governing gun sales.

My journey to bring a gun home from Walmart turned out to be far more complicated than I expected.
https://www.businessinsider.com/walm...a-store-2019-8

[Sparko]

I still think that argument, at this point, is obsolete. To have a reasonably effective 'last line of defense' in our age means putting too much unrestrained power into potentially unstable people's hands. The realcweapons of war are so powerful and destructive it is silly to think a bunch of AR15's is going to make a lot of difference. But even an AR15, it turns out, without some sort of management of their possession and use, is too much power to let loose in a time when there are more and more unstable people around to misuse them.

Jim

You are wrong. Just look at the Middle East where rebels and civilians have held off our military for decades. Usually a government is reluctant to use tanks and bombs against their own populace. And if civilians did make a stand against an oppressive government, they could use their civilian guns to bootstrap their way up to military grade weapons.

It is much easier to control a populace who has no weapons. As we have seen in Venezuela and other countries.

I am just tired of people who know little to nothing about guns trying to tell the rest of the country how guns should be controlled. Your idea of AR15s is a perfect example.

[lilpixieofterror]

I still think that argument, at this point, is obsolete. To have a reasonably effective 'last line of defense' in our age means putting too much unrestrained power into potentially unstable people's hands. The realcweapons of war are so powerful and destructive it is silly to think a bunch of AR15's is going to make a lot of difference. But even an AR15, it turns out, without some sort of management of their possession and use, is too much power to let loose in a time when there are more and more unstable people around to misuse them.

Jim

[lilpixieofterror]

The Las Vegas shooter used modified AR15's, lilpix.

How many people did he kill and badly wound?

You brought up the AR15, not me. I'm simply saying we need stricter gun laws, red flags, stricter background checks, closing of the many loopholes used to skirt the law and by guns and modification devices, buybacks etc etc.,

What are you sick in the head? You watch all these innocent people, school children being murdered and you would do nothing to try and stifle it. That's sociopathic!

[oxmixmudd]

I still think that argument, at this point, is obsolete. To have a reasonably effective 'last line of defense' in our age means putting too much unrestrained power into potentially unstable people's hands. The realcweapons of war are so powerful and destructive it is silly to think a bunch of AR15's is going to make a lot of difference. But even an AR15, it turns out, without some sort of management of their possession and use, is too much power to let loose in a time when there are more and more unstable people around to misuse them.

Jim

[Sparko]

The Las Vegas shooter used modified AR15's, lilpix. How many people did he kill and badly wound? You brought up the AR15, not me. I'm simply saying we need stricter gun laws, red flags, stricter background checks, closing of the many loopholes used to skirt the law and by guns and modification devices, buybacks etc etc., What are you sick in the head? You watch all these innocent people, school children being murdered and you would do nothing to try and stifle it. That's sociopathic!

And nobody even heard of bump stocks until then, and they were promptly banned right after that. Besides watching youtube videos of them being used, they tend to shake the gun all over the place making it impossible to aim. The vegas shooter wasn't even trying to aim, he was just shooting into a crowd.

And have you ever even tried to buy a gun Jim? I have. First I applied for a handgun license. I had to undergo two background checks by the state police and the federal government to get my license. Then I had to fill out another background check form 4473 when I actually bought my gun. They are very thorough. Oh and I bought my gun through the internet. Liberals like to say that is a "loophole" - no it isn't. When you buy a gun through the internet, they won't ship it to you. They will only ship it to a local gun store, where you have to go, fill out the background check, wait for approval, then get your gun. Just like if you bought it at that store in the first place.

You are complaining about problems that don't exist.

Here is the form 4473 you have to fill out when you buy a gun (even from a gunshow or over the internet)

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/44...53009/download

They send that in and do an instant background check on you. If you lie on the form you can be arrested.

[JimL]

The Las Vegas shooter used modified AR15's, lilpix. How many people did he kill and badly wound? You brought up the AR15, not me. I'm simply saying we need stricter gun laws, red flags, stricter background checks, closing of the many loopholes used to skirt the law and buy guns and modification devices, buybacks etc etc., What are you sick in the head? You watch all these innocent people, school children being murdered and you would do nothing to try and stifle it. That's sociopathic!

[lilpixieofterror]

While we are discussing gun bans.... I have heard many people say that disarming the population won't lead to government overreach and even if civilians have guns what could they do against an army. But in every country that has become a totalitarian state, the first job was to disarm the civilians. Especially in socialist/communist regimes. Like Venezuela. The disarmed the people by using the same arguments Beto and the liberals use, to make people "safer" - and once they confiscated the guns, the oppression started.

From 2012:

Venezuela bans private gun ownership

Venezuela has brought a new gun law into effect which bans the commercial sale of firearms and ammunition.

Until now, anyone with a gun permit could buy arms from a private company.

Under the new law, only the army, police and certain groups like security companies will be able to buy arms from the state-owned weapons manufacturer and importer.

The ban is the latest attempt by the government to improve security and cut crime ahead of elections in October

Venezuela saw more than 18,000 murders last year and the capital, Caracas, is thought to be one of the most dangerous cities in Latin America.

The government has been running a gun amnesty in the run-up to the introduction of the new law to try to encourage people to give up their illegal arms without fear of consequences.

One member of the public in Caracas told the BBC: "They're killing people every day. This law is important but they need to do more, they're not doing enough now."

Hugo Chavez's government says the ultimate aim is to disarm all civilians.

And we all know how that turned out.

[Sparko]

While we are discussing gun bans.... I have heard many people say that disarming the population won't lead to government overreach and even if civilians have guns what could they do against an army. But in every country that has become a totalitarian state, the first job was to disarm the civilians. Especially in socialist/communist regimes. Like Venezuela. The disarmed the people by using the same arguments Beto and the liberals use, to make people "safer" - and once they confiscated the guns, the oppression started.

From 2012:

Venezuela bans private gun ownership

Venezuela has brought a new gun law into effect which bans the commercial sale of firearms and ammunition.

Until now, anyone with a gun permit could buy arms from a private company.

Under the new law, only the army, police and certain groups like security companies will be able to buy arms from the state-owned weapons manufacturer and importer.

The ban is the latest attempt by the government to improve security and cut crime ahead of elections in October

Venezuela saw more than 18,000 murders last year and the capital, Caracas, is thought to be one of the most dangerous cities in Latin America.

The government has been running a gun amnesty in the run-up to the introduction of the new law to try to encourage people to give up their illegal arms without fear of consequences.

One member of the public in Caracas told the BBC: "They're killing people every day. This law is important but they need to do more, they're not doing enough now."

Hugo Chavez's government says the ultimate aim is to disarm all civilians.

And we all know how that turned out.

[lilpixieofterror]

We were discussing the difference between AR15s and actual military rifles like the M16 and M4. The difference is that both of those have full auto settings.

[Sparko]

They do, but they are mostly used in semi auto mode. Full auto is really inaccurate and unless your enemy decides to line up in a nice, tight Napoleon column, they are not really going to kill a lot of enemies. The main goal is suppressing fire because you need to do something that exposes you and you want the enemy diving for cover and firing back less. They are not primarily a machine gun.

We were discussing the difference between AR15s and actual military rifles like the M16 and M4. The difference is that both of those have full auto settings.

[lilpixieofterror]

um, M4's have an automatic setting.

They do, but they are mostly used in semi auto mode. Full auto is really inaccurate and unless your enemy decides to line up in a nice, tight Napoleon column, they are not really going to kill a lot of enemies. The main goal is suppressing fire because you need to do something that exposes you and you want the enemy diving for cover and firing back less. They are not primarily a machine gun.

[Sparko]

um, M4's have an automatic setting.

[Sparko]

*emphasis mine

This is only true for the details of legislation - not for the principle of the issue. It's a bad argument to make - how well does 'sit down and shut up' usually work with you?

I generally don't go around pretending to be an expert in areas I am not, and if I do overestimate my knowledge, I will acknowledge that when it is pointed out to me. As I recently did with Lurch regarding several issues regarding climate change.