Originally posted by Sam
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NYT - Trump Administration Considers a Drastic Cut in Refugees Allowed to Enter
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"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostSo you want to pick and choose your moral laws from the OT?
What about the passages where God has the Israelites kill every alien man, woman and child and take their land and possessions? That seems pretty parallel with the verses you are quoting about welcoming aliens. Why don't we just invade Mexico and take everything after killing them all? That sounds biblical and it is talking about aliens and alien lands.
The Bible tells us that religious people who neglect the poor, especially for some self-righteous dogma, will be judged harshly. What did Jesus say to those that claimed to know him, that thought they deserved to be with Him, but ignored the poor, those in prison, etc? And then he turns it on its head and talks to people that DON'T think they deserve to be with Him and bases his acceptance of them on when the DID care for the poor, those in prison etc.
And these are not Paul's worlds Sparko, these are not OT words either - these are Jesus' words telling us how we should live and how we should react to those around us that are poor or suffering.
JimMy brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by Sam View PostBut I don't think people use the term "charity" in that way, referring to relatives or close kin. What Ester is talking about seems along the lines of "We should take care of our homeless veterans before spending money on illegal aliens". It's a false dichotomy, in any sense, but the charity in question is referring to citizens and residents, not kin.
--Sam"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostBut our GOVERNMENT is not. Therefore, we can not hold them to scriptural standards on refugees.
JimMy brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostAlong those lines, it should go without saying that it's unconscionable for the US to be deporting members of Michigan's Chaldean Christian community to Iraq.
--Sam"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostWhen you understand that the US is not Israel, it clears up pretty quickly.
Yes
Jesus tells us we are to love all mankind, and he tells us that whatever we do the 'the least of these' we do to Him. And that is also how He judges us. We are forgiven, so we MUST forgive. We are loved, and so we MUST love. We are not judged, and so we MUST NOT judge. And these commands are not out of compulsion. To do any less is to spit in the face of He who gave His life for us. We cannot demand payment from the fellow that owes us $1, because we have been forgiven trillions. And if we do, Jesus does not have good words for what will become of us.
We simply can't join with those that want to banish those that wish to come here. Trump is on a crusade against people that come here. Each week he ratchets it up. Now it's refugees.
Refugees - people fleeing wars and violence and famine.
JimMy brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by Sam View PostIndeed. It's horrific and even worse how Iraqi and Afghani interpreter visas have been reduced to almost zero now.
--Sam
It just keeps getting worse, more shrill.
JimMy brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostI think we can deduce a broader principle that we are foremost responsible for those directly within our sphere of influence, though other forms of help are not thereby ruled out (such as Paul's appeals to help the struggling Macedonians). I agree it is a false dichotomy, and that proposing it admits an existing failure to help, say, homeless veterans. Nonetheless, the US safety net could be broader, but cannot be stretched indefinitely, so prioritizing the former as a sort of triage is not inherently wrong. What is wrong is nobody caring about helping homeless veterans until they see the opportunity to use them as ammunition in this debate.
--Sam"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostI think I ultimately agree more with you than Sam here but this isn't a good analogy because God instructed the Israelites to kill Canaanites on specific occasions. There was no blanket rule that all foreigners had to be killed at all time, the way the Levitical laws were blanket laws.
I do think that the US has an obligation to allow refugees from Central American countries because its military has destablilized the region in the course of unsuccessfully fighting the War on Drugs, though.
JimMy brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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It is, by White House reporting, part of a deliberate campaign promise/strategy; "immigration" will be a key 2020 election focus for the Trump campaign and that means Stephen Miller -- an anti-immigration zealot -- wields a lot of power.
Which means that it will, by design, keep getting worse.
--Sam
Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostI don't see anything good in the trend as it relates to Trump, his adminstration, and his war on immigration.
It just keeps getting worse, more shrill.
Jim"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Sam View PostHello and welcome, Ester,
I'm not aware of any Scriptural or moral directive that tells us charity should start at home; it very often does, of course, and people are good to pursue local charity. But nothing in Scripture or Christian belief tells us to satisfy the needs of our "own" before giving aid to "the other". Indeed, we see them combined in Scripture as a unified group.
Illegal immigration isn't really an issue here, since we're talking about the refugee program run by USCIS; these are refugees from countries and regions who apply for resettlement, go through various screening processes and interviews, and are placed in USA through organizations that partner with USCIS.
Where illegal immigration involves a crime, it's not in residency: it's not a crime to reside in USA without documentation. Illegal border crossing is a crime but it's typically a misdemeanor offense, like jaywalking in most places. It was, in fact, a civil infraction before a white supremacist successfully led a movement to change it into a criminal offense.
--Sam
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Originally posted by Sam View PostIndeed. It's horrific and even worse how Iraqi and Afghani interpreter visas have been reduced to almost zero now.
--Sam
JimMy brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by Esther View PostHi and thanks. The concept of charity starting at home is more a good practice, common sense one and not necessarily strictly scriptural. For example, if my children or close family or even my church family were in need of daily provisions or health care or education etc and I didn't properly provide these things for them but instead provided these things to strangers, it would not be (logically or morally) right.
In our current situation, the government does allocate resources to the degree of frugality that would allow us to consider the analogy to household care equivalent.
Originally posted by Esther View PostPeople breaking and entering into anything, a house/country surely is a full blown crime?
--Sam"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostAre they sending them back, or just not letting any more in. If the former, it is absolute and utter betrayal of those that helped us, and a massive 'shoot yourself in the foot' policy as we will no longer be able to expect such help in the future.
Jim
Where Iraqi Christians are being sent from Michigan back to Iraq doesn't deal with people who were interpreters but have largely been in the country for decades, some of whom came as children. They should qualify for temporary protected status (TPS), at minimum, but are being routinely deported, regardless. One man recently died, after trying to argue that he would be unable to find insulin if deported back to Iraq. This was true and he died shortly after deportation.
--Sam"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Sam View PostThis continues to be an obvious red herring. The government policy relates to how many refugees can be admitted per year. Y'all are trying to treat it like a policy limiting individual actions, like how many beers can be bought on Sunday.
That would require a system of free movement, which the government doesn't allow. So the "as a government policy" line doesn't remotely work.
--Sam
However, I would certainly have a problem if the government tried to make it illegal for individuals to act charitably and would consider such a measure to be anti-Christian.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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