Originally posted by Adrift
View Post
Announcement
Collapse
Civics 101 Guidelines
Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!
Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less
The irony of the New York Times� 1619 Project...
Collapse
X
-
"The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
-
Originally posted by Sam View PostVery Midwest. But that's pretty much the point being made. Large regions of the USA -- most of it, in fact -- remain largely racially segregated and that segregation didn't just happen but was designed in many places. Rural sundown towns, suburban white flight, racist urban planning -- we have, for generations, built up segregation systems that often have to be consciously overcome in order to have integrated, inclusive neighborhoods.
--Sam
While I believe some of the segregation was planned, some of it seemed to simply happen naturally. A number of Housing and Urban Development Acts were intended to be a positive help to the poor and underprivileged, and it mostly backfired as it resulted in segregated slums and towers-in-the-park type neighborhoods. And it does appear to be the case that, while some neighborhoods can be blissfully integrated (like the neighborhoods I grew up in), some people truly do desire self-segregation. It's always been that way. Polish tend to live near other Poles, Germans near other Germans, Irish next to Irish, Italians next to Italians, Jews next to Jews, and Blacks next to Blacks. Dearborn likely has the largest Arab population outside of the Middle East, and Minneapolis and St. Paul have extremely large Somali populations. I'm not saying these are wrong or right. I'm saying they just are. And sometimes they're not planned, or if they are planned, they're not always planned with malice.
Comment
-
Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostHmmm ... I was annoyed that response gave mm a way out of dealing with the main point of my post, and i was annoyed at how hard it is to get an honest response from so many. I was annoyed at myself for being so far unable to write my posts so that I don"t leave a back door open for someone to latch onto and thus obfuscate the main point.
But I hear what you are saying. And im sorry It seemed I was 'biting your head off'. In another context your conments would have been an intersting sidebar to what is generally regarded as a ground breaking episode of a groundbreaking show. Uhura's role, a smart savy black women in a high ranking position on the bridge, was no trivial matter in that period of american history. She literally became a role model for many women of color.
Thanks though for letting me know how that response felt to you. And Ill try as best I can to avoid that in the future.
Jim
Comment
-
Originally posted by Adrift View PostThe city that that township was associated with certainly had a racist past, as it was a stronghold of a one of the more violent branches of the KKK, so there's no denying that there was segregation. One of the famous eating establishments in that city actually had a separate restroom for blacks back in the 50s on the outside of the building (the door is still there, but of course, most people today don't know its history) and there was a "no coloreds" rule for the local swimming hole/and bubblers in the same decade (again, something that the last few generations have no knowledge of, certainly not within the white community).
While I believe some of the segregation was planned, some of it seemed to simply happen naturally. A number of Housing and Urban Development Acts were intended to be a positive help to the poor and underprivileged, and it mostly backfired as it resulted in segregated slums and towers-in-the-park type neighborhoods. And it does appear to be the case that, while some neighborhoods can be blissfully integrated (like the neighborhoods I grew up in), some people truly do desire self-segregation. It's always been that way. Polish tend to live near other Poles, Germans near other Germans, Irish next to Irish, Italians next to Italians, Jews next to Jews, and Blacks next to Blacks. Dearborn likely has the largest Arab population outside of the Middle East, and Minneapolis and St. Paul have extremely large Somali populations. I'm not saying these are wrong or right. I'm saying they just are. And sometimes they're not planned, or if they are planned, they're not always planned with malice.
Social studies have looked at "self-selection" and found that they cannot account for the racial segregation we see, nor for the inequality in community wealth and value.
When you see those concentrations of recent immigrants, just as an aside, it's because most are 1st or 2nd generation refugees: USCIS tries to group refugees by ethnicity and home region when it can (Indianapolis has a high Burmese population, for example) because it helps refugees resettle successfully. It's often not a function of diaspora immigrants coming together from across the country as an intentional self-selection.
--Sam"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
Comment
-
It seems almost painful, at this point, but historian Kevin Kruse has a good essay about this planned racial segregation in the 1619 Project.
"What does a traffic jam in Atlanta have to do with segregation? Quite a lot." Kevin M. Kruse. NYT: 1619 Project. 2019.08.14
--Sam"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
Comment
-
Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostInteresting. I remembered you indicating you were ia good bit older than that in a previous post. But that is why i tossed in charlottesville - just in case I mixed you up with someone else - You certainly witnessed all of that, it was dicussed endlessly here, and only an idiot would try to claim the epithets shouted there were not racist or were being uttered by 'liberals'.
JimSome may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
Comment
-
Originally posted by Adrift View PostToo white. I preferred city life on the East Coast."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
Comment
-
Originally posted by Sam View PostA lot of segregation in the Midwest was planned. Redlining throughout the early and mid 20th century was rampant and often continued after the practice was explicitly banned. And racially segregating residential areas (suburbia through redlining and white flight, urban areas through redlining and public/private financing) made educational segregation much easier.
Social studies have looked at "self-selection" and found that they cannot account for the racial segregation we see, nor for the inequality in community wealth and value.
When you see those concentrations of recent immigrants, just as an aside, it's because most are 1st or 2nd generation refugees: USCIS tries to group refugees by ethnicity and home region when it can (Indianapolis has a high Burmese population, for example) because it helps refugees resettle successfully. It's often not a function of diaspora immigrants coming together from across the country as an intentional self-selection.
--Sam"The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
Comment
-
Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostI never said it was only liberals.Originally posted by MMHonestly, the only evidence of racism I've seen in my lifetime is from liberals (and those who share their ideals) who are desperate to keep it alive.
If you expect your little "and those who share their ideals" to offer you a 'get out of jail free' card - think again.
JimLast edited by oxmixmudd; 09-09-2019, 07:16 AM.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
Comment
-
It's a shame you and others don't know enough about what was happening in the '50s and '60s to recognize what still remains of that time, to recognize the coded language of white supremacists and their ilk.
What is the motto from the holocaust: "Never forget". Why that motto? Because when what happened is forgotten, it allows it to happen again due to the ignorance of those that have forgotten. And it applies here as well.
But there is more. Much more.
No one can deny that there is an overall disadvantage to African Americans. The statistics don't lie. But you and MM and others are spending a lot of time trying to deny that disadvantage means anything at all about the overall historical legacy of slavery and racism, to deny there is still anything left to do to help remove that distinction. Some have gone so far as to imply that there is a basic moral failing in African Americans as a group - a CLASSIC RACIST MEME. Perhaps these can be relegated to your 'ignorance' of what has come before, let us hope that's all it is.
But it is NOT a trivial issue. This conversation - your part, seer's part, MM's part, could easily be leveraged as proof of the lingering racism in this country. Anyone that knows the racist language, anyone that was there when it was at it's peak and has seen it over time can recognize the elements. They are here on these pages in the words of those arguing against Sam and myself en masse.
So maybe you and seer and MM don't know you are engaging in blatantly racist thought because you are 'too young' to know what the ideas are you've picked up from your conservative outlets (outlets with known connections to racist thought and groups), but it is written all over your comments.
And before you trot out your 'see a racist under every bush' line (again borrowed from conservative pundits with know racist backgrounds or connections) - maybe, just maybe - you should get a little more familiar with the history of the subject, and the language of the hate groups, and how they manipulate people like you into adopting or warming up to their ways of thinking about these issues.
Although I was raised by parents that attempted to strongly reject racist ideas, I was brought up in part in that southern racist culture. I witnessed segregation. Had school mates and friends for whom the Civil War is never over. I had relatives that were, in fact, white nationalists, people deep into the conspiracy theories that are out there and that are regularly repeated on these pages.
I know what this stuff sounds like. I know what the language is. And whether you mean to or not, you'd fit in quite well into those groups. You'd get lots of amen's from them. Not one of them would take exception to the majority, if not the entirety, of what you ,MM, seer, even CP and SPARKO and Rogue have written in this thread.
And that is just the cold hard truth about it.
JimLast edited by oxmixmudd; 09-09-2019, 07:41 AM.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
Comment
-
Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
But it is NOT a trivial issue. This conversation - your part, seer's part, MM's part, could easily be leveraged as proof of the lingering racism in this country. Anyone that knows the racist language, anyone that was there when it was at it's peak and has seen it over time can recognize the elements. They are here on these pages in the words of those arguing against Sam and myself en masse.
So maybe you and seer and MM don't know you are engaging in blatantly racist thought because you are 'too young' to know what the ideas are you've picked up from your conservative outlets (outlets with known connections to racist thought and groups), but it is written all over your comments.
JimLast edited by seer; 09-09-2019, 07:58 AM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
Comment
-
Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostThe Midwest is also one of the whitest areas, in the country. Where over 75% of the population, is white.
JimMy brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
Comment
-
Originally posted by seer View PostJim, I'm 66 years old and lived through the whole Civil Rights thing. My aunt Barbra was a person friend of the Schwerner family, and hosted them in her home for a local town hall when Michael was still missing. And that had an effect on me as a 10 year old. So I would like you to specify where I was blatantly racist, if not apologize.
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...988#post665988
Originally posted by seerWhat causes 70% of black men in the inner cities to abandon their children, when back in the day, when overt racism was much worse, only 20% did?
Originally posted by oxmixmuddBut your question has very, very dark and racist implications. Go back to my fundamental test question. If blacks and whites are fundamentally equal at birth, then these differences come from cultural and environmental differences, differences that are not hard to show find their primary source in racism and slavery over centuries. And it is the moral responsibility of those not 'enslaved' by those environmental differences to try to 'set free' those that are.
I know my comment will be hard to take. Perhaps you could go back through this thread and note the percentage of statements a white supremacist would 'Amen' vs the percentage of statements such a person would reject per person. If you do that, I think you might begin to see what I'm seeing.
JimLast edited by oxmixmudd; 09-09-2019, 08:10 AM.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
Comment
Related Threads
Collapse
Topics | Statistics | Last Post | ||
---|---|---|---|---|
Started by seer, Today, 07:59 AM
|
6 responses
31 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by seer
Today, 10:02 AM
|
||
Started by Cow Poke, Yesterday, 11:05 AM
|
13 responses
96 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by rogue06
Today, 08:03 AM
|
||
Started by CivilDiscourse, Yesterday, 05:24 AM
|
37 responses
186 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by rogue06
Yesterday, 03:27 PM
|
||
Started by seer, 05-18-2024, 11:06 AM
|
49 responses
307 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by seanD
Yesterday, 04:14 PM
|
||
Started by carpedm9587, 05-18-2024, 07:03 AM
|
19 responses
147 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by One Bad Pig
Yesterday, 09:58 AM
|
Comment