The irony of the New York Times� 1619 Project...

[lilpixieofterror]

My brother was recently in California and was absolutely astonished by the homeless issues there. Really shocked my father who lived there back in the 60s and always talked about it as though it were paradise.

It has really gone downhill since the beginning of the 21st century. Really sad how far the golden state has fallen.

[seer]

this is the quote I was thinking of when I wrote my comment seer:

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...988#post665988



and I noted it in my reply at the time:

But your question has very, very dark and racist implications. Go back to my fundamental test question. If blacks and whites are fundamentally equal at birth, then these differences come from cultural and environmental differences, differences that are not hard to show find their primary source in racism and slavery over centuries. And it is the moral responsibility of those not 'enslaved' by those environmental differences to try to 'set free' those that are.



Jim

Jim, I asked a question, and made no comment. And it is a legitimate question, since not having a father in the home is one of the single best predictors of poverty. And what do you mean by racist cultural differences? That does not explain it Jim, because you would think that black men would have abandon their children at greater rates 50-60 years ago when overt racism was MUCH WORSE. So now where do we go? See Jim to people like you just asking the question makes one a racist.

[Mountain Man]

Yes, you did.

If you expect your little "and those who share their ideals" to offer you a 'get out of jail free' card - think again.


Jim

Right, I said "liberals (and those who share their ideals)", because there are some who self-identify as conservative but share many of the same ideals as liberals.

If you think dismissing a qualifying statement gives you carte blanche to level false accusations at me - think again.

[oxmixmudd]

Jim, I asked a question, and made no comment. And it is a legitimate question, since not having a father in the home is one of the single best predictors of poverty. And what do you mean by racist cultural differences? That does not explain it Jim, because you would think that black men would have abandon their children at greater rates 50-60 years ago when overt racism was MUCH WORSE. So now where do we go? See Jim to people like you just asking the question makes one a racist.

I amended my reply to explain this. Just asking the question is not the problem. It is asking it in a context of trying to dismiss that the disparity between whites and blacks is in fact a consequence of slavery and racism that is the problem. When you ask it in that context (at least without careful qualification), it's implication is that the continued disparity between whites and blacks is 'their fault' - which is - unfortunately - overtly racist.

Jim

[Mountain Man]

My brother was recently in California and was absolutely astonished by the homeless issues there. Really shocked my father who lived there back in the 60s and always talked about it as though it were paradise.

It's well known that many of the worst regions in the US are run exclusively by Democrats.

[oxmixmudd]

Right, I said "liberals (and those who share their ideals)", because there are some who self-identify as conservative but share many of the same ideals as liberals.

If you think dismissing a qualifying statement gives you carte blanche to level false accusations at me - think again.

Think again:

Your little 'qualifier' is still saying the same thing. All it does is change your comment to mean 'liberal with regard to racism'.

And it's the same thing MM as a conditional for the consequent. And it's absurd. You have - in fact - (charlottesville at the very least) witnessed racism from people that are not 'liberal as regards racism'.


Jim

*I am under no illusion this reply or any other will cause MM to admit his statement is absurd.

[Mountain Man]

I was brought up in part in that southern racist culture. I witnessed segregation. Had school mates and friends for whom the Civil War is never over. I had relatives that were, in fact, white nationalists, people deep into the conspiracy theories that are out there and that are regularly repeated on these pages.

That would explain why you are more prone to racist thinking than the rest of us. Thankfully, my upbringing was considerably different than yours, and I have never in my life thought it unusual for people of multiple races to live and work together. I even knew several interracial married couples when I was younger, and it never once occurred to me to see it as anything other than perfectly normal.

[lilpixieofterror]

It's a shame you and others don't know enough about what was happening in the '50s and '60s to recognize what still remains of that time, to recognize the coded language of white supremacists and their ilk.

What is the motto from the holocaust: "Never forget". Why that motto? Because when what happened is forgotten, it allows it to happen again due to the ignorance of those that have forgotten. And it applies here as well.

But there is more. Much more.

No one can deny that there is an overall disadvantage to African Americans. The statistics don't lie. But you and MM and others are spending a lot of time trying to deny that disadvantage means anything at all about the overall historical legacy of slavery and racism, to deny there is still anything left to do to help remove that distinction. Some have gone so far as to imply that there is a basic moral failing in African Americans as a group - a CLASSIC RACIST MEME. Perhaps these can be relegated to your 'ignorance' of what has come before, let us hope that's all it is.

But it is NOT a trivial issue. This conversation - your part, seer's part, MM's part, could easily be leveraged as proof of the lingering racism in this country. Anyone that knows the racist language, anyone that was there when it was at it's peak and has seen it over time can recognize the elements. They are here on these pages in the words of those arguing against Sam and myself en masse.

So maybe you and seer and MM don't know you are engaging in blatantly racist thought because you are 'too young' to know what the ideas are you've picked up from your conservative outlets (outlets with known connections to racist thought and groups), but it is written all over your comments.

And before you trot out your 'see a racist under every bush' line (again borrowed from conservative pundits with know racist backgrounds or connections) - maybe, just maybe - you should get a little more familiar with the history of the subject, and the language of the hate groups, and how they manipulate people like you into adopting or warming up to their ways of thinking about these issues.

Although I was raised by parents that attempted to strongly reject racist ideas, I was brought up in part in that southern racist culture. I witnessed segregation. Had school mates and friends for whom the Civil War is never over. I had relatives that were, in fact, white nationalists, people deep into the conspiracy theories that are out there and that are regularly repeated on these pages.

I know what this stuff sounds like. I know what the language is. And whether you mean to or not, you'd fit in quite well into those groups. You'd get lots of amen's from them. Not one of them would take exception to the majority, if not the entirety, of what you ,MM, seer, even CP and SPARKO and Rogue have written in this thread.

Because you know, black people can only do well if we give them our sympathy and pity. Yes, treating an entire race as though they are too dumb and uncivilized to do good on their own totally will rase them up, if you only try hard enough.

And that is just the cold hard truth about it.

Indeed, you think blacks are too stupid and uncivilized to do well without white guilt driven whitey giving them handouts. Yet, everyone else is the racist, but you.

[lilpixieofterror]

That would explain why you are more prone to racist thinking than the rest of us. Thankfully, my upbringing was considerably different than yours, and I have never in my life thought it unusual for people of multiple races to live and work together. I even knew several interracial married couples when I was younger, and it never once occurred to me to see it as anything other than perfectly normal.

[lilpixieofterror]

Jim, I asked a question, and made no comment. And it is a legitimate question, since not having a father in the home is one of the single best predictors of poverty. And what do you mean by racist cultural differences? That does not explain it Jim, because you would think that black men would have abandon their children at greater rates 50-60 years ago when overt racism was MUCH WORSE. So now where do we go? See Jim to people like you just asking the question makes one a racist.

[Sam]

There's a pretty good essay linked above regarding how racist urban and suburban planning from "some 50 years ago" still impacts and controls residential segregation today.

For someone who's response to racial segregation in housing is "people want to live around those like them", you'd think that the fact many minority communities were explicitly created to be inferior through racist policies would be a bigger issue.

--Sam

[lilpixieofterror]

There's a pretty good essay linked above regarding how racist urban and suburban planning from "some 50 years ago" still impacts and controls residential segregation today.

For someone who's response to racial segregation in housing is "people want to live around those like them", you'd think that the fact many minority communities were explicitly created to be inferior through racist policies would be a bigger issue.

--Sam

And of course, liberals that think blacks are not smart enough to make it without whitey helping them has nothing to do with any of it.

[seer]

I amended my reply to explain this. Just asking the question is not the problem. It is asking it in a context of trying to dismiss that the disparity between whites and blacks is in fact a consequence of slavery and racism that is the problem. When you ask it in that context (at least without careful qualification), it's implication is that the continued disparity between whites and blacks is 'their fault' - which is - unfortunately - overtly racist.

Jim

Jim, I'm asking why is abandonment by fathers so much worse now than it was 50-60 years ago when racism was much much worse? I think it may have to do with the imposed qualification for Welfare benefits, where the mother and child could not have the man living in the home to collect. But I'm working on memory. And I'm not sure why it would be racist to call black men out to stand up and care for their own children. Or give up gangster rape which is deeply sexist in nature, and honor their women.

[Mountain Man]

Because of my parents' choice of ministry, I lived and grew up in two US inner cities. Walking to work one day, I had a black guy ask me, "What's it like being a white boy living with all the [n-words] in the ghetto?" I shrugged my shoulders and said, "It doesn't bother me," and he laughed. That was just normal life as far as I was concerned, so I think I have a different perspective than people like ox who were apparently steeped in racism all of his life.

[Mountain Man]

Jim, I'm asking why is abandonment by fathers so much worse now than it was 50-60 years ago when racism was much much worse? I think it may have to do with the imposed qualification for Welfare benefits, where the mother and child could not have the man living in the home to collect. But I'm working on memory. And I'm not sure why it would be racist to call black men out to stand up and care for their own children. Or give up gangster rape which is deeply sexist in nature, and honor their women.

In my experience, it's the women who don't want the men in their lives because, as you say, it would reduce or even eliminate the government benefits they receive. It's not hard to find a man who wants to have sex, and the women don't really care if he sticks around afterwards. And it's not just blacks. I know white women who have this same mentality.