Will The Global Warming Hysterics Never Tire Of Being Wrong?

[Mountain Man]

From what I recall, even the manufacturing process for such produces an inordinate amount of hazardous waste.

I've read that as well. Also a problem is that there's no practical way to safely dispose of electric car batteries and solar panels that have reached the end of their usable life.

[Charles]

I've read that as well. Also a problem is that there's no practical way to safely dispose of electric car batteries and solar panels that have reached the end of their usable life.

Source?

[Leonhard]

We have a number of strip-mined areas around Texas that you'd never know were ever strip-mined. They even have environmentalists on staff to oversee the removal and storage of the top soil, with a complete plan for restoration, and when the mining is done, it's put back in such a way that it becomes a park or a golf course or something beautiful.

I know we talked about it a long time ago, so I didn't press this point until I was able to research how well such projects went. But as nearly as I can tell it's only a minority of the strip-mined areas that have been reclaimed, it's hard to find exact numbers on and there's a lot of propaganda on both sides on this though. The only hard numbers I have seem to indicate that full recovery only happens for a few percent of the areas. The rest are left permanently contaminated. Most of the success also seems to stem from the companies and communities being allowed to redesignate the mines, so they're not returned to original state, but from say forest to pasture.

[Leonhard]

From what I recall, even the manufacturing process for such produces an inordinate amount of hazardous waste.

Compared to the millions of tons of fly ash from coal power plants, that leach all sorts of heavy metals into groundwater? Here you have a fly ash sludge waste dump, extending out to the horizon.

[Sparko]

I know we talked about it a long time ago, so I didn't press this point until I was able to research how well such projects went. But as nearly as I can tell it's only a minority of the strip-mined areas that have been reclaimed, it's hard to find exact numbers on and there's a lot of propaganda on both sides on this though. The only hard numbers I have seem to indicate that full recovery only happens for a few percent of the areas. The rest are left permanently contaminated. Most of the success also seems to stem from the companies and communities being allowed to redesignate the mines, so they're not returned to original state, but from say forest to pasture.

so, look up their locations and then check google maps satellite view.

I can tell you that other than some active mines, in the area of appalachia where my grandpa was from they have reclaimed all strip mines. They have to. It's the law.

And you seem to be conflating strip mining with ash from power coal power plants. They are not related.

[Leonhard]

so, look up their locations and then check google maps satellite view.

I can tell you that other than some active mines, in the area of appalachia where my grandpa was from they have reclaimed all strip mines. They have to. It's the law.

And you seem to be conflating strip mining with ash from power coal power plants. They are not related.

Give me numbers. Because I'm seeing studies where out of 300000 acres only about 6000 completed reclamation, the rest were allowed to be redesignated for other uses. We can all find sunshine stories, and I'm sure both you and Cow Poke are honest about yours and I believe them, the question is what the general rule is.

I've talked about strip mining in relation to talks about wind turbines and how much land area they can take up.

I've talked about fly ash sludge storage the objection of the quantity of waste comes up. It seems solar power is not allowed to produce a hundred thousand tons of waste per year, but its find for coal power to produce a hundred million tons of waste. There's a bit of a disconnect there for me.

[Sparko]

Give me numbers. Because I'm seeing studies where out of 300000 acres only about 6000 completed reclamation, the rest were allowed to be redesignated for other uses. We can all find sunshine stories, and I'm sure both you and Cow Poke are honest about yours and I believe them, the question is what the general rule is.

I've talked about strip mining in relation to talks about wind turbines and how much land area they can take up.

I've talked about fly ash sludge storage the objection of the quantity of waste comes up. It seems solar power is not allowed to produce a hundred thousand tons of waste per year, but its find for coal power to produce a hundred million tons of waste. There's a bit of a disconnect there for me.

It would depend on what they mean by "other use." Cow poke mentioned turning some strip mines into parks. Or maybe turn it into farm land. Is that bad? Land put to solar/wind farms is permanently unusable for as long as the power farm exists there. A strip mine will probably only last 10 years or so before it is mined out and they have to reclaim it.

I don't have numbers, I am just going by what I know from an area I am familiar with, and because I have family that work in the coal mines in Appalachia. There, they have to reclaim the land back to the way it was. Which means replacing the top soil and planting trees to make it look as much like it did before as possible to prevent erosion.

[One Bad Pig]

Compared to the millions of tons of fly ash from coal power plants, that leach all sorts of heavy metals into groundwater? Here you have a fly ash sludge waste dump, extending out to the horizon.

I'm having a disconnect between pointing out the issues with the manufacture and disposal of electric car batteries and fly ash. We have coal-powered cars?

[Teallaura]

I know we talked about it a long time ago, so I didn't press this point until I was able to research how well such projects went. But as nearly as I can tell it's only a minority of the strip-mined areas that have been reclaimed, it's hard to find exact numbers on and there's a lot of propaganda on both sides on this though. The only hard numbers I have seem to indicate that full recovery only happens for a few percent of the areas. The rest are left permanently contaminated. Most of the success also seems to stem from the companies and communities being allowed to redesignate the mines, so they're not returned to original state, but from say forest to pasture.

EPA - Abandoned Mine Lands


New mines are legally required to be reclaimed. What you're talking about are the ones that predate regulation - and we're working on those as well.

[Leonhard]

I'm having a disconnect between pointing out the issues with the manufacture and disposal of electric car batteries and fly ash. We have coal-powered cars?

No, I'm just seeing objections to photovoltaics and batteries that are equally applicable to coal power. In fact more so by orders of magnitude.

[Teallaura]

Compared to the millions of tons of fly ash from coal power plants, that leach all sorts of heavy metals into groundwater? Here you have a fly ash sludge waste dump, extending out to the horizon.

That's an impoundment - the enclosing dike is clearly visible in the background. It does not 'extend to the horizon'. That's the camera angle - impoundments are big, but no where near THAT big.

[Leonhard]

It would depend on what they mean by "other use." Cow poke mentioned turning some strip mines into parks. Or maybe turn it into farm land. Is that bad? Land put to solar/wind farms is permanently unusable for as long as the power farm exists there.

The amount of space needed while significant is rather small compared to the overall size of the US. You're in a very good position to be able to do something like that. But I agree it is a lot of space to use. That's why I'm strongly in favor of nuclear power, always have been. I hope you have more luck in the US with nuclear power than we do in Europe because here Chernobyl and Fukushima pretty much nailed the lid on the coffin except for a few countries like Finland and France.

The links Teal provided have the EPA suggesting putting solar power out in the vast stretches of strip-mined land that have yet to be reclaimed.

Here's the area you'd have to cover to power the world, Europe or Germany, if the panels were placed in Sahara.

[Teallaura]

No, I'm just seeing objections to photovoltaics and batteries that are equally applicable to coal power. In fact more so by orders of magnitude.

Presently 48% of coal ash is recycled - which we haven't got a good way to do with photovoltaics.

[Leonhard]

That's an impoundment - the enclosing dike is clearly visible in the background. It does not 'extend to the horizon'. That's the camera angle - impoundments are big, but no where near THAT big.

It's big. We can nitpick how its described. I am not wrong in the waste from coal power plants being order of magnitudes greater than what would be produced by photovoltaics.

[Leonhard]

Presently 48% of coal ash is recycled - which we haven't got a good way to do with photovoltaics.

Generally, by mixing it into concrete I know, which is needed because it turns out the landfills were leaching heavy metals out into the water streams, and creating landfills that don't leak like that is expensive when you have to store several container ships worth of waste. Its a good initiative, and I support it.

As for photovoltaic storage, those waste products will have to be handled sensibly as well. Some of them like thin-film solar panels can be easily recycled others like silicon panels can, but its more expensive than simply landfilling them. At any rate, we won't have a problem landfilling them. It will be an insignificant fraction compared to the huge muck ponds those coal power plants create.