Backlash Over Proposed �Straight Pride� Parade In Boston

[Cow Poke]

"They think we're sexual degenerates? How dare they?! We'll show them!"

[oxmixmudd]

Not yet Jim, Christians and Christian ideals are being marginalized more and more in the West. We see this on college campus, in the general culture.

It still doesnt compare - in this country - to what ive seen done to gays. Now in other places in the world that is not true.

Part of the problem here is that most of us stay away from gays, so we just are not aware of how it is, or just dont care because we think they deserve it.

Jim

[Adrift]

It still doesnt compare - in this country - to what ive seen done to gays. Now in other places in the world that is not true.

Part of the problem here is that most of us stay away from gays, so we just are not aware of how it is, or just dont care because we think they deserve it.

Jim

I think that may be a regional thing maybe. I'm not sure about Maryland, but here in Ohio (and in New England), homosexuality is very much celebrated. It's celebrated in TV, at the movies, on the streets with parades, at my bank (Chase bank has a pro-pride message at the ATM), and throughout other local businesses, schools, and public venues. Columbus' Pride parade and associated events are massive! The city, especially High St., and the Short North are heavily festooned with pride flags, and pride flyers (even outside of Pride month). And being gay is often considered a mark of honor. I know a number of people personally who "came out" in high school and college because they wanted to be part of the movement, and be part of something exciting and sort of dangerous and underground, only to drop the pretense later (I also know a number of girls who would flirt and make out with one another to turn on their guy friends).

I know for a fact that people who struggle with homosexual desires still have it rough, whether it's internal confusion, or be from family or some of the public, but a lot that has changed in the last 35 years since homosexuality has been pushed heavily to the forefront by the LGBT machine. GLAAD gladly promotes the fact that homosexuality is over-represented in TV and movies, and people who are not with the message are quickly and heavily turned on and told in no uncertain terms that they're vermin and evil, and are NOT welcome. Whether that's celebrities like Chris Pratt, or scientists like Robert Spitzer who was responsible for removing homosexuality from the list of mental illness in the DSM in the 70s, but who later conducted a peer reviewed and published survey that dedicated men and women could change their sexual orientation. The backlash from both the LGBT community and his own peers was so heavy, and the damage to his legacy so real, he at first defended his study, but eventually renounced it, and sought to have it removed from the journal it was published in (it wasn't). About 5 years ago I read a pro-LGBT journalist who accepted that the search for a gay gene should be acknowledged as fruitless, but that it had done it's job, that it had gotten people to believe that such a thing was probable, and that turned public policy around enough so that the LGBT community won in the end, even if it was through a lie.

And no, I don't stay away from most gays. Having been in the underground punk and goth music scenes for the last 30 years, I have many gay and trans friends and acquaintances, and have had numerous discussions with them about their lifestyle (and have also been hit on a few times). Have interviewed gay and trans people about their lifestyle for a zine I used to work on. Have even been to gay clubs or bars a time or two. People with sexual non-normative inclinations are not people I typically distance myself from (unless they're jerks, but that's true for anyone). In my experience if one were to call themselves Christian or gay in a city like Columbus, or even in smaller cities in Ohio, I guarantee you that the Christian would have a harder time being taken seriously. That might sound crazy to you, but that's the reality I live in. Now maybe if you moved over to the sticks, or more hick sections of the city that might not be quite as true, but downtown homosexuality is something you wave your flag high for. It's something people are heavily HEAVILY pro about.

[Tassman]

If the gay pride parades of a dozen or so years ago were trying to effect change they likely shot themselves in the foot. I've heard several gay activists say over the years that those parades were at best counterproductive.

Except that LGBT civil rights have significantly progressed since the time of the Stonewall riots that started it all in the '60's.

[seer]

It still doesnt compare - in this country - to what ive seen done to gays. Now in other places in the world that is not true.

Part of the problem here is that most of us stay away from gays, so we just are not aware of how it is, or just dont care because we think they deserve it.

Jim

Well I have known and befriended a number of gays over my life, and a couple of trans. And my attitude has been to live and let live. But that is not what is happening with these activists. They are intolerant and vicious. Just disagree with their views on marriage or human sexuality or what constitutes gender and they will come after your job or business and character. They do not yet have the power to really persecute dissenters by government edict, but when they do their wickedness will reach the heavens.

[oxmixmudd]

I think that may be a regional thing maybe. I'm not sure about Maryland, but here in Ohio (and in New England), homosexuality is very much celebrated. It's celebrated in TV, at the movies, on the streets with parades, at my bank (Chase bank has a pro-pride message at the ATM), and throughout other local businesses, schools, and public venues. Columbus' Pride parade and associated events are massive! The city, especially High St., and the Short North are heavily festooned with pride flags, and pride flyers (even outside of Pride month). And being gay is often considered a mark of honor. I know a number of people personally who "came out" in high school and college because they wanted to be part of the movement, and be part of something exciting and sort of dangerous and underground, only to drop the pretense later (I also know a number of girls who would flirt and make out with one another to turn on their guy friends).

I know for a fact that people who struggle with homosexual desires still have it rough, whether it's internal confusion, or be from family or some of the public, but a lot that has changed in the last 35 years since homosexuality has been pushed heavily to the forefront by the LGBT machine. GLAAD gladly promotes the fact that homosexuality is over-represented in TV and movies, and people who are not with the message are quickly and heavily turned on and told in no uncertain terms that they're vermin and evil, and are NOT welcome. Whether that's celebrities like Chris Pratt, or scientists like Robert Spitzer who was responsible for removing homosexuality from the list of mental illness in the DSM in the 70s, but who later conducted a peer reviewed and published survey that dedicated men and women could change their sexual orientation. The backlash from both the LGBT community and his own peers was so heavy, and the damage to his legacy so real, he at first defended his study, but eventually renounced it, and sought to have it removed from the journal it was published in (it wasn't). About 5 years ago I read a pro-LGBT journalist who accepted that the search for a gay gene should be acknowledged as fruitless, but that it had done it's job, that it had gotten people to believe that such a thing was probable, and that turned public policy around enough so that the LGBT community won in the end, even if it was through a lie.

And no, I don't stay away from most gays. Having been in the underground punk and goth music scenes for the last 30 years, I have many gay and trans friends and acquaintances, and have had numerous discussions with them about their lifestyle (and have also been hit on a few times). Have interviewed gay and trans people about their lifestyle for a zine I used to work on. Have even been to gay clubs or bars a time or two. People with sexual non-normative inclinations are not people I typically distance myself from (unless they're jerks, but that's true for anyone). In my experience if one were to call themselves Christian or gay in a city like Columbus, or even in smaller cities in Ohio, I guarantee you that the Christian would have a harder time being taken seriously. That might sound crazy to you, but that's the reality I live in. Now maybe if you moved over to the sticks, or more hick sections of the city that might not be quite as true, but downtown homosexuality is something you wave your flag high for. It's something people are heavily HEAVILY pro about.

It may actually be more a historical thing. Most of the events that have shaped my opinion on this are from decades ago. I do notice that kids and schools in general are not as hostile to gay people as they once were, though I still see it happening. though it was 21 years ago Matthew Shepard was dragged to his death, I just posted links to two events this past week in England. There are likely regional aspects to it. Areas where the legacy of the KKK or similar groups and ideas are strong. But Christian churches are still a strong source of hostility toward them. And how else can it be, our scriptures teach that homosexual acts are worthy of death. To avoid hostility engendered by that sort of teaching one must focus strongly on 'love your enemies'. Sayings like 'hate the sin, not the sinner' don't exactly help - but if an attitude of love and compassion is fully integrated into a person it is possible to believe that acts themselves are sin and still interact with gay people in a loving manner.

As I've said in other discussions of this topic - it is a difficult one for me. On the one hand, I can't reconcile scripture with acting out same-sex attraction. OTOH, given the fact sincere efforts to change have such a low incidence of success (though I know enough that have successfully changed to know it's not impossible) it would seem Christian faith has little to offer a gay person that can't make that jump. Some have adopted a celibate life as a solution - but most do not. And there are many that simply accept their gayness and live otherwise moral, upright, Christian lives. So it is not an easy thing to parse.

One thing that is not part of the debate is whether or not the pictures CP posted can be part of any Christian 'solution' to the issue same-sex attraction. Hedonism is not a Christian expression and never will be.


Jim

[Cow Poke]

Except that LGBT civil rights have significantly progressed since the time of the Stonewall riots that started it all in the '60's.

And I'm sure it had to do with a lot of loonies running around half naked in public, simulating sex acts, dressing (if you can call it that) like BSDM participants, and generally acting the fool.

Ya know, Tass, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if you actually believed that.

[rogue06]

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[Adrift]

though it was 21 years ago Matthew Shepard was dragged to his death,

Are you familiar with the work of the award winning investigative journalist, Stephen Jimenez (himself openly gay), on Matthew Shepard's case? Contrary to the popular narrative that Shepard was attacked and murdered because he was gay, Jimenez found that his murderers knew Shepard well, had occasional sexual encounters with him, and ultimately murdered him, not because he was gay, but because of a meth deal/robbery gone bad?

https://www.npr.org/2013/10/06/22643...nfamous-murder

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...atthew-shepard

I just posted links to two events this past week in England.

I don't know about two

There are likely regional aspects to it. Areas where the legacy of the KKK or similar groups and ideas are strong. But Christian churches are still a strong source of hostility toward them. And how else can it be, our scriptures teach that homosexual acts are worthy of death. To avoid hostility engendered by that sort of teaching one must focus strongly on 'love your enemies'. Sayings like 'hate the sin, not the sinner' don't exactly help - but if an attitude of love and compassion is fully integrated into a person it is possible to believe that acts themselves are sin and still interact with gay people in a loving manner.

I think you overestimate the influence of the legacy of the KKK in the nation. I agree that there's likely small pockets where that legacy still holds some influence, but generally speaking, the nation (as far as I can tell) has moved in the opposite direction. Christians and their values are the ones that are largely under attack in our popular culture, our influence has waned, our churches are emptying. People who were always Christian In Name Only are giving up the facade, and homosexuality is widely and heavily celebrated. Our scriptures taught that homosexuality was worthy of death as a maximum penalty for a particular people who placed themselves under a covenant with God, at a particular place and time in history well before the grace afforded to all through our Lord and Savior. Our scriptures are also responsible for shifting social mores and values so that civic rights movements, and the open tolerance we speak so highly of are championed, and largely prevail. In an ironic twist of fate, Christianity, and it's views on charity, grace, tolerance, and the value of the individual is responsible for the success of movements like the LGBT movement.

As I've said in other discussions of this topic - it is a difficult one for me. On the one hand, I can't reconcile scripture with acting out same-sex attraction. OTOH, given the fact sincere efforts to change have such a low incidence of success (though I know enough that have successfully changed to know it's not impossible) it would seem Christian faith has little to offer a gay person that can't make that jump. Some have adopted a celibate life as a solution - but most do not. And there are many that simply accept their gayness and live otherwise moral, upright, Christian lives. So it is not an easy thing to parse.

If it's any consolation, it's a hard thing for me as well. There are a number of views in scripture that, for me, are hard for me to hear, and make my heart heavy, but I follow Christ's lead, not because I'm some dumb sheep (as some skeptics would argue), but because I know that he is the way the truth and the life. He has shown himself over and over and over again (at least in my life) to be reliable and trustworthy. The truth is not always convenient, and it's not always easy to hear, and sometimes I have to get my emotions out of the way, and let him lead. I've found that, ultimately it is true that for those who put their faith in Christ, there is nothing we cannot handle, and that God really does provide a way of escape from heavy temptation. That we can endure. I also believe that is a God of making the impossible possible. I've seen it with my own eyes.

One thing that is not part of the debate is whether or not the pictures CP posted can be part of any Christian 'solution' to the issue same-sex attraction. Hedonism is not a Christian expression and never will be.

Agreed. I'd also like to reiterate (in case I didn't make it clear above) that I do believe that LGBT people do still suffer persecution here and abroad. And while not gay myself, I've personally witnessed and have even received some of that flack (called a pansy, or a (the f-word) simply for how I was dressed or for hanging with the people I was hanging with. People are rotten to one another, and unfortunately that's not going to change any time soon. Christians certainly should be above that all, and provide a home for the lost and homeless.

[rogue06]

Are you familiar with the work of the award winning investigative journalist, Stephen Jimenez (himself openly gay), on Matthew Shepard's case? Contrary to the popular narrative that Shepard was attacked and murdered because he was gay, Jimenez found that his murderers knew Shepard well, had occasional sexual encounters with him, and ultimately murdered him, not because he was gay, but because of a meth deal/robbery gone bad?

https://www.npr.org/2013/10/06/22643...nfamous-murder

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...atthew-shepard

It has been awhile since I've heard anyone bring up the Shepard case since it appears to not have been what we were originally told it was.

[Adrift]

It has been awhile since I've heard anyone bring up the Shepard case since it appears to not have been what we were originally told it was.

Well, like Dr. Spitzer in my previous post, Jimenez was quickly and heavily derided for going against the narrative, even though he had absolutely zero motive for lying, and in fact, as a major gay rights advocate, had an opposite motive for covering up the truth. I hate that this is a thing in the post-modern West, that people can't even offer clarification without being vilified. That subjective "truths" trump objective truth, but I'm thinking this is the way things have always been, but the internet and media has just given certain groups a louder voice to shout over it all.

[Cow Poke]

Well, like Dr. Spitzer in my previous post, Jimenez was quickly and heavily derided for going against the narrative, even though he had absolutely zero motive for lying, and in fact, as a major gay rights advocate, had an opposite motive for covering up the truth. I hate that this is a thing in the post-modern West, that people can't even offer clarification without being vilified. That subjective "truths" trump objective truth, but I'm thinking this is the way things have always been, but the internet and media has just given certain groups a louder voice to shout over it all.

When the Bible talks about the "prince of the power of the air"... I can't help but think this is why we have situations like this where there's a particular "narrative", and anybody, regardless of who they are or what they stand for, who speaks against that narrative doesn't stand a chance.

[Sparko]

If it's any consolation, it's a hard thing for me as well. There are a number of views in scripture that, for me, are hard for me to hear, and make my heart heavy, but I follow Christ's lead, not because I'm some dumb sheep (as some skeptics would argue), but because I know that he is the way the truth and the life. He has shown himself over and over and over again (at least in my life) to be reliable and trustworthy. The truth is not always convenient, and it's not always easy to hear, and sometimes I have to get my emotions out of the way, and let him lead. I've found that, ultimately it is true that for those who put their faith in Christ, there is nothing we cannot handle, and that God really does provide a way of escape from heavy temptation. That we can endure. I also believe that is a God of making the impossible possible. I've seen it with my own eyes.

^^That.

I made the decision long ago that if I was to be a Christian, I would have to follow Christ, as revealed in the bible, even when I didn't like or want to agree with it. I have had to eliminate some things (sins) in my life that I would have rather kept, except that the bible says it is something sinful. And in the way I treat others. And what I consider "good" and "bad" in the world. And the same with doctrine. I may not understand things like the Trinity but I can see it clearly in the bible so I accept it.

[seer]

^^That.

I made the decision long ago that if I was to be a Christian, I would have to follow Christ, as revealed in the bible, even when I didn't like or want to agree with it. I have had to eliminate some things (sins) in my life that I would have rather kept, except that the bible says it is something sinful. And in the way I treat others. And what I consider "good" and "bad" in the world. And the same with doctrine. I may not understand things like the Trinity but I can see it clearly in the bible so I accept it.

It took me a couple of years to stop chasing the ladies...

[Sparko]

It took me a couple of years to stop chasing the ladies...

we are all a work in progress.