Mayor Pete Attacks Trump's Faith...

[carpedm9587]

I'm not sure that the problem would be so easily assessed when it comes to them there Baptists - they seem to be very jealous of their autonomy. Congregations pretty much have final authority - and if the teachers don't teach what the congregation finds acceptable, the pastors won't get away with spouting it from the pulpit. (but maybe I have a somewhat starry eyed view of the Baptist system - except that I can't handle leavened bread and grape juice at communion). For example the SBC decided against women pastors not too long ago, and the Japanese Baptists told them that if they wanted a continuing association, they could shove their no women in church authority edict where it fits (which is not in Japan).


The analogy runs into a major problem with regard to the Baptist Churches ... there is very little by way of hierarchy beyond the local congregation. No decisions by anything that looks like a higher authority are binding on individual congregations. Being a loose knit federation has its upside (no rogue Pope to make pronouncements or take action that contaminates the entire group) and its downside (no real way to deal with rogue congregations like Westboro).

probably about equal number of racists from what I can tell, but the left seems to be overrun with many more ists.

ETA: CP would be more aware of the actual workings than I am - all I have is a small bit of research last year (and more the JBC at that) and two hours/week contact as a TESOL teacher.

Good points, and well spoken. Thanks!

[Cow Poke]

This is the kind of crap for which you earned the name "fraud!"

Well, coming from the class dunce....

[Tassman]

This is the kind of crap for which you have earned the name "Drama Queen".

Actually, this is the kind of name-calling "crap" to which you resort when you are unable to answer the question.

Well, coming from the class dunce....

Sigh!

[Tassman]

It was the economy, stupid.

So, biblical justification for keeping slaves is not necessary if the economy is at risk. I understand.

[Cow Poke]

So, biblical justification for keeping slaves is not necessary if the economy is at risk. I understand.

Any time you type "I understand" is a sign you're just being a jackass.

You seem to keep forgetting your ignorant claim that "the SBC" used biblical justification for slavery. You have yet to demonstrate that, so you go off on these other idiot assertions.

[Cow Poke]

Actually, this is the kind of name-calling "crap" to which you resort when you are unable to answer the question.

I've answered the question repeatedly, and you've responded with jackassery -- hence, the observation that you're doing the Drama Queen thing. Again.

Sigh!

Yeah, like that.

[carpedm9587]

So what you're basically saying is that Jesus is a hypocrite because His behavior doesn't line up with your personal/subjective opinion of what "loving" behavior is, regardless of what His own views on the matter might have been?

That seems more than a bit arrogant to me.

No - I'm saying he was hypocritical because he said one thing and did another. The hypocrisy has nothing to do with what I think he OUGHT to do.

That left the rest of us to choose which way to dodge. What I would call "Christian trolls" tend to grab onto the negative behavior and use it to justify their own. Other moral leaders, after Jesus, did a better job of living this out more consistently. My preference is to take hold of the positive side of the message and try to live it. I emphasize "try" because I am by no means perfect at it. Just ask my family. Or poke around here a bit. I'm sure you can quickly find more than a few places where I failed to meet up with my own ideals.

[carpedm9587]

There is a disconnect in our milieu which seemingly didn't exist to the chroniclers of the Bible. In the absence of any attempt to explain the seeming discrepancy by the NT writers, I take the view that they simply didn't see a conflict - and more significantly, didn't expect their audience to see a conflict. There is also the problem posed by translation from Semitic languages to Koine Greek, which may have resulted in a loss of nuance - though it is only a minor problem.

I note that the targets of Jesus' invective were singularly people who were expected and required to behave in a God honouring fashion by virtue of their posts. Even with them, Jesus was more inclined to teach than to scold. Nor can it be denied that Paul's admonition, "in as far as possible, in as much as it depends on you, be on good terms with all persons," expires when there is no more "possible" and no more "it depends on you." That admonition does impact on the application of "love those who hate," and "pray for those who persecute." It doesn't provide excuses for people who want to use excuses.

Yeah - I note that. In an interesting irony, the one thing that brought out this inconsistent behavior in Jesus (as he is described, anyway) was inconsistent behavior on the part of religious leaders within his own faith. It appears to have been a trigger for him, and I can certainly understand it. I too find it difficult to deal with obviously self-serving televangelists, and those who justify some amazingly awful things on the basis of "that's what their god wants." It is, to me, one of the great dangers of religions. When someone holds a position based on thought and reason, there is always at least a chance of getting them to reconsider their position. But when one holds a position on the basis "god wants me to X," there is little or no discourse possible. Any deviation from "god wants me to X" would be perceived as a betrayal of this god. When the X is ugly, it means there is little hope of changing the ugly. We see this dynamic is pretty much all of man's religions.

[carpedm9587]

But you can and do discipline your children out love.

You appear to be trying to equate "discipline" with "ridicule" and "disparage" and "name call" and the other things being discussed here. Yes, I disciplined my children, out of love. But I never "punished" them. I simply required them to own the consequences of their choices. And I did not name call or ridicule. I have to admit that I did not manage to be the dad I wanted to be and never raise my voice in anger. But I did manage to raise my children without ever raising a hand to them, or engaging in "punishment."

Just to be clear, I consider "punishment" to be a penalty imposed on someone that they are unaware of and is usually poorly (or not at all) related to the issue at hand. Things like, "go to your room" or timeout chairs or spanking or grounding for X days, etc.

[JonathanL]

No - I'm saying he was hypocritical because he said one thing and did another. The hypocrisy has nothing to do with what I think he OUGHT to do.

No, I'm pretty sure I hid the nail right on the head. There's no justification for you to claim that Jesus actions were hypocritical unless you can show that his actions were in conflict with his own personal views on what constituted loving behavior.

That his actions happened to be in conflict with what you personally consider to be loving behavior doesn't make him a hypocrite, not even close.

[Cow Poke]

No, I'm pretty sure I hid the nail right on the head.

A most interesting idiom.

[JonathanL]

A most interesting idiom.

I think I'll leave it as it is.

[Cow Poke]

No, I'm pretty sure I hid the nail right on the head. There's no justification for you to claim that Jesus actions were hypocritical unless you can show that his actions were in conflict with his own personal views on what constituted loving behavior.

That his actions happened to be in conflict with what you personally consider to be loving behavior doesn't make him a hypocrite, not even close.

Yeah, when I get some time, I want to look at some source material on this. Jesus certainly showed love and compassion for the lost, but he was not very tolerant of those who would keep them lost.

[Cow Poke]

I think I'll leave it as it is.

Can I use it?

[JonathanL]

Can I use it?

Feel free.

I wonder in what context the idiom would be approriate though. Is it kind of like when you're searching for your glasses and can't find them no matter how much you search, and after a while you realize they've been on your head the whole time?