Mayor Pete Attacks Trump's Faith...

[KingsGambit]

I think if you entertain the thought of sexual sin then you're drifting into sinful behavior in exactly the same sense that the heteronormative person can drift into sinful behavior if they entertain the thought of sex with their neighbor's wife. Was it Billy Graham who said something to the effect of "it's not the first glance that gets you, it's the second one." I don't know where the exact crossing point is, but I definitely think wondering about that crossing point misses the point, which is that we should aim for putting on the mind of Christ. We shouldn't be as concerned about what we can get away with as we ought to constantly yearn to reflect Christ's thinking and behavior.

Ultimately I believe that it's God's desire for his children to be healed and whole, and I don't think that Christians who struggle with homosexual thoughts/desires should stop desiring wholeness, and completeness, anymore than the Christian who struggles with anger, or heterosexual lust.

I'm not speaking of people who are necessarily entertaining the thought of sexual sin so much as people who feel a emotional yearning for same-sex companionship in a manner beyond that of deep friendship. Perhaps it is easier for me to separate the sexual nature of attraction, coming from a demisexual perspective, but my question remains - is the person who has prayed for wholeness for years and yet not had that thorn removed in a perpetual state of sin? And if so, how does one repent of that sin? (Steven Anderson suggests suicide, but thankfully he is in the minority among Christians.)

[KingsGambit]

I don't know if Adrift is a baptist or not, but they believe that anything we do - even our good deeds - are all completely tainted by sin.

In my opinion though involuntary actions cannot be sinful.

Are you confusing Baptist with Calvinist here?

I was raised in a Baptist church (and even attended a Baptist seminary for a year), though I left that particular church when they adopted an affirming view of homosexuality and do not identify with any denomination at this point in time, but can honestly say I never heard that teaching in my 25+ years within Baptist circles. I have, however, heard this claim in the context of defending Calvinism.

[Mountain Man]

...do you maintain at this point in time that a celibate Christian who is same sex attracted is in a perpetual state of sin even if they never once act on it?

Temptation is never a sin. A heterosexual man who finds himself attracted to a woman has committed no sin, but if he acts on it, either through lust or physical action, then he has committed a sin. It's the same for homosexuals. Unfortunately for homosexuals, there is no way for them to fulfill their desires that isn't a sin, and so celibacy is the only choice for a Christian who is struggling with homosexuality.

[Adrift]

I'm not speaking of people who are necessarily entertaining the thought of sexual sin so much as people who feel a emotional yearning for same-sex companionship in a manner beyond that of deep friendship. Perhaps it is easier for me to separate the sexual nature of attraction, coming from a demisexual perspective, but my question remains - is the person who has prayed for wholeness for years and yet not had that thorn removed in a perpetual state of sin? And if so, how does one repent of that sin? (Steven Anderson suggests suicide, but thankfully he is in the minority among Christians.)

I don't think that temptation, in of itself, is sinful (or otherwise Christ himself would have committed sin). I think it's how we respond both internally and externally to that temptation that's important. A person who struggles with same sex thoughts isn't necessarily committing sin, anymore than the person who struggles with opposite sex thoughts, or the person who struggles with anger issues, or the desire for alcohol, etc.. It's what we do with those thoughts that seems to be the key. What should the person in this perpetual state do? Continue to do as the Epistles teach, which is to strive for completion, to strive as imagers of God for perfection, to, as Galatians 5 says, live by the Spirit so that we will not carry out the desires of the flesh. Thankfully we have a comforter, the Holy Spirit, to help us out so we're not alone in our struggle. And we all struggle, it's not just the person struggling with same sex desires.

Not sure if that clarified my position, but hope that helps.

[Mountain Man]

Was it Billy Graham who said something to the effect of "it's not the first glance that gets you, it's the second one." I don't know where the exact crossing point is, but I definitely think wondering about that crossing point misses the point, which is that we should aim for putting on the mind of Christ.

Like the joke about the rich man looking for a new limo driver. He took the applicants up to a road near a steep cliff and asked the first candidate, "How close can you get to the edge without driving over?" The man said, "I could drive within one inch of that edge!" He asked the same of the second applicant who boasted, "I could drive within less than a quarter of a inch!" The question was put to the third applicant who said, "Are you guys crazy? I would stay as far away from that edge as I possibly could!" The rich man told him, "You're hired."

[Adrift]

Temptation is never a sin. A heterosexual man who finds himself attracted to a woman has committed no sin, but if he acts on it, either through lust or physical action, then he has committed a sin. It's the same for homosexuals. Unfortunately for homosexuals, there is no way for them to fulfill their desires that isn't a sin, and so celibacy is the only choice for a Christian who is struggling with homosexuality.

Well...I don't know if it's the only choice. I know a few people who struggled with non-normative sexual attractions who later claimed healing, and I know others who were never fully delivered from the struggle, but found contentment in an opposite sex relationship and marriage.

[Cow Poke]

Just where do you get off making idiotic statements like that?

Idiotic? I haven't seen the evidence. Calm yourself, big guy.

Why do you suppose he's in that photo?

I have several photos of my dog at my Church - doesn't mean he's a member.

What about the fact he's listed as a member on his wikipedia entry? Do you go around demanding a letter on a church's letterhead before You'll accept any other person's claim they attend a church? Would that even be enough in this case?

you a funny funny guy

And why are you so hung up on this fantasy that this person has completely made up his affiliation with this church? Isn't this thread 'only about whether he publicly can be quoted saying he's a practicing christian' so you can prove Tassman wrong?

"Fantasy"? You're losing it, Jim. As for Tassman's lack of credibility, I believe that has already been established.

It seems to be about a good deal more than that CP.

I was more concerned about the "practicing Christian" thing - even if he IS a "member" of the Church, it doesn't prove he's a practicing Christian, and thus far, there is ZERO evidence that Buttigieg has ever claimed that.

You really want his claims at Christian faith to be an open deception it seems and are quite intent on placing very unrealistic expectations on the amount of evidence required to support the idea.

I trust that sentence made better sense in your head.

ETA: and here is about as solid an evidence as you are likely to get he attends that church.

https://ednin.org/ednin-blog/2019/4/...sten-buttigieg

A call to prayer for him and his husband by the diocese over that church listing him as an active member of that church.


Jim

Ah, after all that bluster, FINALLY, something of substance!

[Cow Poke]

Well you ARE the preacher. I guess JimL forgot about that little detail.

He thought he was being clever.

[Cow Poke]

I got no beef in this discussion, I just think it's kinda boring, and a hill not really worth dying on (for either side).

According to this link, his Bishop claims he's an active member of his church.

https://ednin.org/ednin-blog/2019/4/...sten-buttigieg

(Oh, looks like oxmix already linked it)

Also in this video here,
https://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/wa...-1461532739696

He says "Yes" when asked if he's made Jesus Lord. He also states that Christianity is about more than that, it's about us being imitators of Christ, and he remarks on how when God comes among us, we see service, humbling, feet washing, and he agrees with the concept of the first shall be last, and the last shall be first.

I'm not sure how sincere he is, but if it'll stop the back and forth here, maybe it's worth something.

Thanks, Adrift - that's EXACTLY the kind of thing for which I have been asking.

[Mountain Man]

Well...I don't know if it's the only choice. I know a few people who struggled with non-normative sexual attractions who later claimed healing, and I know others who were never fully delivered from the struggle, but found contentment in an opposite sex relationship and marriage.

I'm talking about fulfilling any homosexual desires. Yes, there are other desires they might be able to fulfill in a way that is pleasing to God, but not homosexuality.

[Cow Poke]

Me too, though the book is not written on either of them yet. Nothing says Trump cant repent, find God, change his ways sometime between now and when he dies. Buttigieg confesses Christ, though it is interesting how the strongest advocates for 'by grace alone' are the most vehement to deny any possibility he's actually a Christian because he acts on his gay attraction, although within a monogamous setting.



Jim

Today was the very first time I saw the evidence for which I have been asking for WEEKS.

[Cow Poke]

Who has vehemently denied any possibility that Buttigeig is actually a Christian? He very well may be, but based on the way he ignores scripture and openly flaunts his sinful lifestyle, if he is a Christian then he is likely like the ones Paul describes in 1 Corinthians 3 who will enter heaven but only as one who has escaped through the flames.

My position has been....

First, is there any evidence from Buttigieg himself that he claims to be a "practicing Christian". I think the jury is out on that.
Second, I hadn't seen anything that actually demonstrated that he was actually a member of the Episcopal Church -- I think that has been answered in the affirmative, though it took a long time.
Third, I hadn't seen anything that indicated that Buttigieg had ever made a profession of faith. I think that has been addressed.

That leaves the "practicing Christian" thing, and the fact that he's
A) in a homosexual "marriage", to me, is a major problem, along with
2) his advocacy for abortion at any stage (flip-floppy though it is)

If he HAS accepted Christ as Savior, the other issues present a huge problem.

[Cow Poke]

I'm not a Baptist. CP is though, and I'm sure he can chime in. I don't recall him ever putting it that way though. I'm finding that denominational labels are becoming more and more meaningless among many Protestants though, and the views of one group within the denomination do not necessarily reflect the views of others in the denomination. And often the views of those in one denomination are pretty much the same as those in another.

I wonder if the internet has had that effect on Christianity. More and more it seems that people are leaving their denominational divides, and embracing their commonalities.

I'm not sure what the "even our good deeds - are all completely tainted by sin" means. Never heard it put that way before.

[Adrift]

I'm not sure what the "even our good deeds - are all completely tainted by sin" means. Never heard it put that way before.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_depravity

Like KingsGambit, I've mostly only ever heard it in connection with Calvinists.

[Mountain Man]

I'm not sure what the "even our good deeds - are all completely tainted by sin" means. Never heard it put that way before.

It's probably based on the verse in Isaiah that says that our righteous acts are like filthy rags. But that is, of course, talking about someone who is unrepentant (in the context of Isaiah, it's explicitly about Israel who had rebelled against God). I don't think it applies to the Christian who is trying to do God's will.