Originally posted by Sparko
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Homophobic Trump...
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Originally posted by seer View PostAnd many mental disorders will keep you out of the military. And if I follow your logic species dysphoria is not a problem either. Sorry, if you feel that you are a cat, or a biological male who feels he is a woman then there is something really wrong with you.
At the end of the day - the only relevant question is "can you do the job?" I have no evidence to suggest that a trans person is incapable of doing the job - hence they should not be excluded. If you know of a reason why they cannot do the job - as a class - by all mean put it forward.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAs far as I know, psychology and psychiatry do not place "species dysphoria" and "gender dysphoria" on an equal plane, so I don't either. You appear to be trying to put all mental illnesses on the same plane. IMO, if a psychiatrist says "nothing urgent to see here," I'm going to accept their training and expertise and not sweat about it.
At the end of the day - the only relevant question is "can you do the job?" I have no evidence to suggest that a trans person is incapable of doing the job - hence they should not be excluded. If you know of a reason why they cannot do the job - as a class - by all mean put it forward.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAs far as I know, psychology and psychiatry do not place "species dysphoria" and "gender dysphoria" on an equal plane, so I don't either. You appear to be trying to put all mental illnesses on the same plane. IMO, if a psychiatrist says "nothing urgent to see here," I'm going to accept their training and expertise and not sweat about it.
At the end of the day - the only relevant question is "can you do the job?" I have no evidence to suggest that a trans person is incapable of doing the job - hence they should not be excluded. If you know of a reason why they cannot do the job - as a class - by all mean put it forward.
From what I understand you can't even join the military if you are diabetic. And if you develop diabetes you can be discharged. A transgender is just as dependent on ongoing medication as a diabetic would be.Last edited by Sparko; 02-21-2019, 11:40 AM.
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Originally posted by seer View PostDo you know they don't place them on the same level? But what, in kind, is the difference? Both are divorced from reality.
Originally posted by seer View PostYes I'm suggesting that the mentally ill should not be in the military.
And apparently there are a fair number of current and former military leaders who see the policy of inclusion as the best course for the military: accepting all people and making decisions on the basis of individual capabilities. Indeed, after having actually served for over two years, I can find no reported incident of the trans nature of any member of the military being an obstacle to doing the job.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThere are many things humans do that are "divorced from reality," Seer. They don't all rise to the same level. Heck - I think your belief in a god is "divorced from reality." I don't think you're mentally ill. The person who thinks they can chain smoke with impunity for 40 years is "divorced from reality." The person in denial about the sexual trauma they suffered is "divorced from reality." Being "divorced from reality" does not necessarily make one unfit to serve. The question is, does their condition prohibit them from doing their duty as a serving member of the military.
Mental illness is not "binary." It's a continuum from profound to innocuous. The question is, where do we put the line. To me, where we put the line is simple: does their condition prevent them doing the job, or in any way place their comrades in harm's way. When you can show this to be the case, then I will agree that the person in question should not serve.
And apparently there are a fair number of current and former military leaders who see the policy of inclusion as the best course for the military: accepting all people and making decisions on the basis of individual capabilities. Indeed, after having actually served for over two years, I can find no reported incident of the trans nature of any member of the military being an obstacle to doing the job.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostI think the argument I heard is that they are on medications and ongoing treatments that cause a burden on the army.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostThey also cause a distraction among the troops, especially if they have not undergone sexual reassignment surgery.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostWhere do you put a physical male who identifies as a woman? With men? with women?
Originally posted by Sparko View PostFrom what I understand you can't even join the military if you are diabetic. And if you develop diabetes you can be discharged. A transgender is just as dependent on ongoing medication as a diabetic would be.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThat has been largely debunked.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostWhy wouldn't gender dysphoria rise to the same level as species dysphoria? What is the difference in kind?
Originally posted by seer View PostThere is zero military reason to even test your position.
Originally posted by seer View PostAnd I'm sure we could find an equal number military men who would disagree. And two years is not enough to to make any claim, especially with so few transgenders actually in the military.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostYou would have to ask the medical experts that question. The treatment lists are very different between the two. And there is the rather obvious truth that someone who is gender dysphoric still sees themselves as human but simply identifies with a different gender. Someone who is species dysphoric will have differing "symptoms" depending on the specific species and the degree of involvement. Frankly, I have the same opinion about service and species dysphoria as I have about gender dysphoria or depression or substance addiction. Evaluate the person, determine the severity, establish if it is an inhibitor to doing the job, and then admit or reject.
There is zero military reason to bar individuals from service on the basis of you "not liking" their particular state in life.
I'm sure there are many military people who think as you do. When I hear people say "include" and others say "exclude," I lean to "include" unless someone can show cause. As for "so few," the estimates were between 1 and 6 thousand trans people in the military, so I agree its a fraction of the workforce, but not a tiny number. And if we can have a situation for two years with few (if any?) reported problems - then what is the rationale for reversing it, other than "Donald wants to energize his base?" I tend to fix problems when it is clear we have one. No one has demonstrated that trans gendered people in the military are a problem.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostBull, from your link: $8.4 million out of an estimated Defense Department expense of $50 billion.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostWell thankfully the are are no longer able to serve. They should apply to Google, they like that kind of thing over there.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThe argument "we would not pay those costs if they were not there" can be applied to any group of people with medical costs. It's not a very compelling argument. The cost comes to an average between about $1.3K and $6.6K per person (depending on the actual number of trans people in thee military). If that cost gets us 1-6K good service people willing to offer their life for our country, I'd say it's a decent investment and I honor them for being willing to serve.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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