So what is this toxic masculinity thing anyhow?

[Joel]

As has been noted, "toxic masculinity" is an exaggerated form of masculine traits that makes them destructive, harmful, and denigrating - on the basis that "this is how a man acts."

And others have objected to that claim, and I haven't seen you respond to those objections.
The culture is not teaching that being a bully, or sexual harassmen, are "how a man acts". They are not considered manly. (Nor exaggerated/extreme manliness.)

And traditional teaching on "this is how a man acts", opposes such behaviors. Traditional teaching does not praise sexual conquest, for example. It rather has a dim view of promiscuous fornication.

No - it's not - because the issue is not JUST about the behavior - it's about the motivation for, or driving force behind, the behavior.

And what do you think that motivation is? I recall reading articles by psychologists saying that the motivation for being a bully is an attempt to not have to recognize one's own insecurities and incompetencies, by feeling power over others, and an attempt to increase one's own popularity or social status. And that this motivation is the same for both male and female bullies.

Absolutely not. At no point have I ever advocated using a term in a bigoted fashion. I also don't think we discard terms because some people use them badly.

I think you aren't responding to Cow Poke's argument. He isn't complaining that some people use it badly. He's complaining that the term naturally evokes the wrong ideas. They are easily misunderstood. The argument would not be discard because some people use them badly, but discard because they don't effectively communicate the intended meaning. If it's easily misunderstood and leads to protracted discussions about the term, then perhaps switch to different terms that avoid those problems.

For example take "white privilege" (Note I'm not wanting to derail into a discussion of the concept, but consider the term). It's just bad marketing--a bad way to communicate one's point. For a normal person who hears the term for the first time, the natural response is, "That seems racist, and obviously false." Which leads to protracted arguments about the term and whether it is racist and obviously false. If it's not racist and false, then probably there exists different language that would better communicate the intended meaning.

Unless perhaps one's intent is to shock and offend, and not to communicate.

No. And I'll add that the fact that you think these things means you've pretty much misunderstood everything I've said - and have locked what I am actually saying into a stereotype of the "radical left." I'm not surprised - that's pretty much what always happens here.

I think the reaction against the term is not (or at least not solely) a reaction against what you personally mean by it, but by what it connotes in its broader usage today, where it is connected to a whole movement. I don't know exactly what to call it. Some people say SJW, or privilege theory, or identity politics, or cultural Marxism, or critical theory, or whatever. Those in that movement saw the Gillette ad, for instance which referred to "toxic masculinity", as an endorsement of the movement.

In the end, I think you folks hate "toxic masculinity" because it narrows down to a particular type of person: a man.

That may be part of it--in the sense that it seems to engage in identity politics. People have been raised to think that thinking of people as classes, and in terms of stereotypes about those classes is bigoted. There is at least an automatic suspicion that a person talking about "toxic masculinity" (or "toxic femininity" or "toxic blackness" or "toxic whiteness") is just perpetuating negative stereotypes about men, just as listing examples of "toxic femininity" would seem to be listing examples of negative stereotypes about women.

[Sparko]

I wonder how long it will be before Male Testosterone supplements are outlawed.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]34813[/ATTACH]

See? They are RED for RAGE!!!

[Sparko]

We can't have that. Think of all the men trapped in women's bodies, you heartless monster!

Once men are all women it won't make a difference.

[Tassman]

Because they smell nicer.

Yes, and they tend to be more beautiful, but isn't this just objectifying women? This is what the 'me too' movement and feminists in general oppose...with good reason.

[lilpixieofterror]

Yes, and they tend to be more beautiful, but isn't this just objectifying women? This is what the 'me too' movement and feminists in general oppose...with good reason.

It is interesting how many liberals are slowly becoming puritans in their dealings with the opposite sex.

[Mountain Man]

Yes, and they tend to be more beautiful, but isn't this just objectifying women? This is what the 'me too' movement and feminists in general oppose...with good reason.

Right, because when I tell my wife that she's beautiful and smells nice, I'm objectifying her.

[Tassman]

Right, because when I tell my wife that she's beautiful and smells nice, I'm objectifying her.

No, you tell your wife those things because you love her. But I trust this is not the reason you let all women step out of the elevator ahead of you.

[seer]

Right, because when I tell my wife that she's beautiful and smells nice, I'm objectifying her.

you pig!

[Mountain Man]

No, you tell your wife those things because you love her. But I trust this is not the reason you let all women step out of the elevator ahead of you.

I tell my wife those things because it's true.

[lilpixieofterror]

Right, because when I tell my wife that she's beautiful and smells nice, I'm objectifying her.

[Mountain Man]

And this is where the theory of toxic masculinity breaks down, when even a traditional show of respect towards women is regarded with suspicion.

[lilpixieofterror]

And this is where the theory of toxic masculinity breaks down, when even a traditional show of respect towards women is regarded with suspicion.

[DesertBerean]

Prone to Violence

I remember that.

[Cow Poke]

It is interesting how many liberals are slowly becoming puritans in their dealings with the opposite sex.

Until they get caught with their pants down.

[Tassman]

I tell my wife those things because it's true.

Glad to hear it, but this still doesn't address why you allow women to exit an elevator ahead of you. Aren't all people, male and female, deserving of equal respect and courtesy?