So what is this toxic masculinity thing anyhow?

[seer]

Sometimes.

So was that an alpha male's attempt to "shame" another male?

An Alpha trying to get a Beta to buck up!

Warning reality..

[One Bad Pig]

If Christ started to post on tweb we would see many personal attacks on him from Conservatives and I am sure he would recieve a rather large number of warnings.

I see a fool rushing in where angels fear to tread.

[One Bad Pig]

In my experience - everyone is convinced that Jesus would be just like they think he would be, and they would recognize and instantly accept him.


I would LOVE to test that assumption!

Perhaps I'm the exception proving the rule, but I anticipate it would be a rather uncomfortable experience; I don't anything like measure up to the standard He set.

[Mountain Man]

In my experience - everyone is convinced that Jesus would be just like they think he would be, and they would recognize and instantly accept him.

I would LOVE to test that assumption!

As the gospels relate it, Jesus was actually a pretty chill dude who was popular and well-liked. It was mostly hypocritical religious leaders who had abandoned scripture who he had a problem with. I rather think that if Jesus posted here, he would probably be the most well-liked member of the forum, and if anybody tried to be a jackass, he would cut them down to size so quickly and so authoritatively that it would leave everybody's head spinning.

[carpedm9587]

When you say stuff like "what is right or wrong depends on my subjective idea" he might actually agree with you, only pointing out that it is HIS subjective idea it depends on?

If Jesus does come back - I will have no choice but to tell him I was apparently wrong.

[seer]

If Jesus does come back - I will have no choice but to tell him I was apparently wrong.

"When the author walks on to the stage the play is over. God is going to come, all right: but what is the good of saying you are on His side then, when you see the whole natural universe melting away like a dream and something else comes crashing in; something so beautiful to some of us and so terrible to others that none of us will have any choice left? Something so overwhelming that it will strike either irresistible love or irresistible horror into every creature. It will be too late then to choose your side. There is no use saying you choose to lie down when it has become impossible to stand up." CS Lewis

[carpedm9587]

An Alpha trying to get a Beta to buck up!

Warning reality..

What on earth does anything in that video have to do with "toxic masculinity?"

There is actually more "toxic masculinity" in "An Alpha trying to get a Beta to buck up!"

Sorry, Seer - but your image of "what it takes to be a man" has more to do with stereotypes than it has to do with reality, or with anything I would ever aspire to.

Indeed, one of the better icons of a "man," to me, is the person Jesus is depicted as being in the NT. Or Ghandi. Or MLK. Or Obama. Or the father figure Tom Selleck plays in Blue Bloods.

[seer]

What on earth does anything in that video have to do with "toxic masculinity?"

There is actually more "toxic masculinity" in "An Alpha trying to get a Beta to buck up!"

Sorry, Seer - but your image of "what it takes to be a man" has more to do with stereotypes than it has to do with reality, or with anything I would ever aspire to.

Indeed, one of the better icons of a "man," to me, is the person Jesus is depicted as being in the NT. Or Ghandi. Or MLK. Or Obama. Or the father figure Tom Selleck plays in Blue Bloods.

These are rough Alpha males willing to do terrible things to protect your freedom. Though I do like the Tom Selleck character...

[carpedm9587]

These are rough Alpha males willing to do terrible things to protect your freedom. Though I do like the Tom Selleck character...

There is a difference between "alpha male" and "toxic male." In my experience, not all alpha males are toxic - though they certainly can be. And there are a lot of "toxic" beta males. Weiner and Weinstein hardly strike me as "alphas."

[seer]

There is a difference between "alpha male" and "toxic male." In my experience, not all alpha males are toxic - though they certainly can be. And there are a lot of "toxic" beta males. Weiner and Weinstein hardly strike me as "alphas."

But according to APA Traditional Masculinity is also harmful...

https://www.simplemost.com/the-apa-s...eds-to-change/

Don't you get Carp, being male is the disease. Unless you are an Alan Alda type...

[carpedm9587]

But according to APA Traditional Masculinity is also harmful...

https://www.simplemost.com/the-apa-s...eds-to-change/

Don't you get Carp, being male is the disease. Unless you are an Alan Alda type...

I agree with the APA. There are many aspects of "traditional masculinity" that are harmful. You've exhibited a few of them here. The dad who screamed at his son not to be a wimp is another. "Traditional masculinity" often holds up an expectation to men that most men cannot possibly achieve - just as the "super model" holds up an expectation to women that most women cannot achieve. Even in the wild, the "alpha" is a rarity. Most males aren't. To hold up the expectation that all males will be alphas is damaging to those who are not.

I prefer a world where alphas are alphas and beta are betas and such is life. No one is "less a man" because he's not an "alpha."

As best I can tell, you prefer a world where everyone aspires to be an alpha - and if they don't they're a wimp and need to "buck up."

[Mountain Man]

There is a difference between "alpha male" and "toxic male."

Which is to say that there is a difference between a gentleman, and a jerk, and everybody is pretty clear on where that division lies. Unfortunately, a broad brush term like "toxic masculinity" condemns the gentleman just as readily as the jerk.

[Joel]

"Toxic masculinity" is taking traditionally masculine traits to an extreme that is destructive, harmful, or demeaning.

What traditionally masculine traits? If we are talking about the traditional view of how real men should be, then the behaviors described as "toxic masculinity" are the opposite of that. They aren't being-a-gentleman taken to an extreme (extremely gentlemanly).

Toxic masculinity refers to a set of behaviors exhibited by some men. "Toxic femininity" (if it were a common term) would refer to a set of traits exhibited by some women. I'm not seeing a problem.

This doesn't work does it? Some women have committed murder, so we can start calling murder "toxic femininity"? On the other hand, if you change it to say "exhibited by only men," that would likely be too narrow, since for any behaviors, we could probably find some women who exhibited it.
If, on the third hand, you change it to a statistical statement like "exhibited more often by men", then perhaps we are getting into the territory of stereotypes? If there happens to be a higher crime rate among black people, surely we aren't going to start calling criminal behavior "toxic blackness"?

[carpedm9587]

Which is to say that there is a difference between a gentleman, and a jerk, and everybody is pretty clear on where that division lies.

I would not equate "gentleman" with "alpha male," as you seem to have done here. An alpha male can be a gentleman, or a jerk. He can be a jerk because he lies and cheats, or because he exhibits characteristics associated with toxic masculinity. Not all jerks are toxic males. However, I would agree that all toxic males are jerks.

Unfortunately, a broad brush term like "toxic masculinity" condemns the gentleman just as readily as the jerk.

No - it actually doesn't. Just like jerks - a "gentlemen" can exhibit characteristics of toxic masculinty, or not. In my experience, when they do - it's of the "innocuous" variety.

You guys really have a problem with this language. That much is clear. From what I've seen - any attempt to label a common social phenomenon is unacceptable.

Except for those that have to do with liberals and Democrats, of course...

Well - I'll leave you to it.

[Mountain Man]

You guys really have a problem with this language.

Perhaps we should start calling it "toxic liberalism".