So what is this toxic masculinity thing anyhow?

[Cow Poke]

I suspect that most males have engaged in toxic masculinity to some degree -....

And there was already a name for that. They're jerks.

[Mountain Man]

I suspect that most males have engaged in toxic masculinity to some degree..

And now comes the "every man is guilty simply because he's a man" narrative.

[carpedm9587]

And now comes the "every man is guilty simply because he's a man" narrative.

No - at no point did I say that - or even suggest it. I think all of us are stepped in our culture, and the history of our culture includes elements of "toxic masculinity." If we want to change that, if behooves each of us to examine our lives and see if we are perpetuating any part of that. If not - not. If so - change it.

I have to admit - for a group who likes to pile on me for "avoiding self-reflection," there is an amazing amount of resistance to the idea that perhaps we should all engage in some self-reflection.

[Bill the Cat]

I don't think this is "post of the day" material, but I think I understand the feelings behind it. I would have written it like this:

To me, this thread is basically:

Proposal: "Toxic masculinity" is a mindset that emphasizes male traits to a destructive, abusive, harmful level.

Some conservatives: "Toxic masculinity" doesn't exist and is just another liberal label used to denigrate men (conservatives? Republicans?)
Some conservatives: "Toxic masculinity" is just a phrase that can be used to accuse any man of anything anytime, so it's meaningless.
Some conservatives: "Toxic masculinity" is just another word for "being a jerk" and we don't need the phrase. it's more harmful than beneficial.

I disagree with all of those positions in all of their forms. "Toxic masculinity" is real. If it were not, there would have been no #MeToo movement. If it were not, there would not be a network of women's shelters across the country. If it were not, women would earn as much as men for doing the same work and doing it just as well.

And my wife reminded me, last night, that it is not limited to male/female exchanges. She told this story from her childhood. When she was in middle school, an eighth grader (who was slight, and shy, and fearful) was being bullied by a sixth grader who outweighed him by 20+ pounds, and two of his friends. The child ran into his home to escape the bullies, and was met by his father. Upon realizing what was happening (the boy was in tears) he screamed, "get out there and fight them! No son of mine is going to be a sissy wimp!" and then shoved the boy back out the door. The boy stood sobbing on the front porch of the house. Even the bullies knew this was over the top, and slowly walked away.

Masculinity is defined as "qualities or attributes regarded as characteristic of men." Some men exaggerate those qualities and apply them in harmful and abusive ways. Yes - they are being jerks. But the term "toxic masculinity" simply defines what kind of jerk we're talking about. A bully is also a specific kind of jerk. A liar is another specific kind of jerk. There is nothing wrong with calling out a specific kind of "jerk" and talking about it.

No one (as far as I know) is calling all male actions "toxic." And it is true that the same action can be toxic or nontoxic depending on what motivates it. It is also true that telling someone else what motivates them is always a problem (though I have to admit that I find the objection on this front somewhat ironic, given the number of times I have been told what my motivations are on this site). Not all forms of "toxic masculinity" are created equal, as I noted. They can range from the more innocuous (e.g., opening the door for the "little woman,") to the more egregious (e.g., nothing the belt for each virgin bedded).

But ignoring the phenomenon seems to me a silly thing to do. And I have to admit that I do not understand the resistance to creating for a name for a thing we need to talk about, and become aware of.

ETA: And at the risk of being accused of "projection," I have found that having these discussions with my wife and others has made me aware of times when I have engaged in some form of "toxic masculinity." I've never engaged in the more egregious forms, but I have engaged in the more subtle forms. Having the conversation raised my awareness, and caused me to re-evaluate and change my behavior as a consequence. Personally, I think that's a good thing. I wish I could say I'm now perfect at it - but I'm not. Color me human.

Look at the director's YouTube channel. She hates men, and this was made to denigrate masculinity in ANY of its expression.

[carpedm9587]

Look at the director's YouTube channel. She hates men, and this was made to denigrate masculinity in ANY of its expression.

I don't see how any one person's YouTube channel negates anything I've said. Yes - there are people who will use "Toxic Masculinity" as a mantra to attack people who are not guilty of it. There are also people who will use "Toxic Feminism" as a mantra to attack people who are not guilty of doing anything wrong. There are people who will use "Bullying" as an attack for people who are not bullying. There are people who will hurl the word "liar" at anyone who says something that is not 100% correct. That doesn't make any of these things less real. There are people who engage in toxic masculinity, toxic feminism, bullying, and lying.

[Bill the Cat]

I don't see how any one person's YouTube channel negates anything I've said. Yes - there are people who will use "Toxic Masculinity" as a mantra to attack people who are not guilty of it. There are also people who will use "Toxic Feminism" as a mantra to attack people who are not guilty of doing anything wrong. There are people who will use "Bullying" as an attack for people who are not bullying. There are people who will hurl the word "liar" at anyone who says something that is not 100% correct. That doesn't make any of these things less real. There are people who engage in toxic masculinity, toxic feminism, bullying, and lying.

It's simply another way feminists are attacking masculinity in its different forms. Being an asshat is sufficient a label. Creating yet ANOTHER virtue signaling buzzword and attempting to control the conversation of how far is "too far", like this ridiculous commercial, is part of the feminist playbook. Once it is entrenched in the daily vernacular, it becomes a club with which to silence any and all dissent to feminism.

[carpedm9587]

It's simply another way feminists are attacking masculinity in its different forms. Being an asshat is sufficient a label. Creating yet ANOTHER virtue signaling buzzword and attempting to control the conversation of how far is "too far", like this ridiculous commercial, is part of the feminist playbook. Once it is entrenched in the daily vernacular, it becomes a club with which to silence any and all dissent to feminism.

It is a way SOME feminists are (inappropriately) attacking masculinity in its different forms.

For the rest - I can only say "wow." I don't recall if you are one of the people constantly berating me for lacking in self-reflection. If you are, you should stop.

[Cow Poke]

No - at no point did I say that - or even suggest it. I think all of us are stepped in our culture, and the history of our culture includes elements of "toxic masculinity." If we want to change that, if behooves each of us to examine our lives and see if we are perpetuating any part of that. If not - not. If so - change it.

I have to admit - for a group who likes to pile on me for "avoiding self-reflection," there is an amazing amount of resistance to the idea that perhaps we should all engage in some self-reflection.

I'm sitting here contemplating my navel.

[Bill the Cat]

It is a way SOME feminists are (inappropriately) attacking masculinity in its different forms.

Some, like the director of this ad.

For the rest - I can only say "wow."

Why? It's the truth.

I don't recall if you are one of the people constantly berating me for lacking in self-reflection. If you are, you should stop.

I am not.

[carpedm9587]

Some, like the director of this ad.

Why? It's the truth.

I am not.

I don't think further discussion is likely to be productive. You appear to be locked into your mindset.

[seer]

No - at no point did I say that - or even suggest it. I think all of us are stepped in our culture, and the history of our culture includes elements of "toxic masculinity." If we want to change that, if behooves each of us to examine our lives and see if we are perpetuating any part of that. If not - not. If so - change it.

Most normal women I know like me to open their doors even if I'm doing it just because they are a woman. They don't mind being called darling, or the man paying for dinner. They are not as anal about all this as the whack job feminists...

[Mountain Man]

No - at no point did I say that - or even suggest it.

That's precisely what you have suggested when you say that all men are guilty of so-called toxic masculinity "to some degree". It's no better than declaring that all white people are inherently racist "to some degree", or that all women are shrews "to some degree", or that all black people are feckless "to some degree".

[rogue06]

Most normal women I know like me to open their doors even if I'm doing it just because they are a woman. They don't mind being called darling, or the man paying for dinner. They are not as anal about all this as the whack job feminists...

Here in the South calling a waitress darling, honey or sweetie (and being addressed in a similar fashion by them) is just not thought of being condescending but rather as friendly.

[seer]

Here in the South calling a waitress darling, honey or sweetie (and being addressed in a similar fashion by them) is just not thought of being condescending but rather as friendly.

That happens up here too. Mostly by women who haven't been polluted by radical feminism...

[carpedm9587]

Most normal women I know like me to open their doors even if I'm doing it just because they are a woman. They don't mind being called darling, or the man paying for dinner. They are not as anal about all this as the whack job feminists...

Most women I know want to be treated respectfully and as an equal. If they think they are being condescended to because they are a woman - they will say so instantly. They don't like being called "darlin'" and "sweetie" and "dear." They have no objection to being bought dinner, if they also are buying their share.

Perhaps it's a regional thing - or maybe it's a question of what circles on travels in.