Originally posted by carpedm9587
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So what is this toxic masculinity thing anyhow?
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI suspect that most males have engaged in toxic masculinity to some degree..Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostAnd now comes the "every man is guilty simply because he's a man" narrative.
I have to admit - for a group who likes to pile on me for "avoiding self-reflection," there is an amazing amount of resistance to the idea that perhaps we should all engage in some self-reflection.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI don't think this is "post of the day" material, but I think I understand the feelings behind it. I would have written it like this:
To me, this thread is basically:
Proposal: "Toxic masculinity" is a mindset that emphasizes male traits to a destructive, abusive, harmful level.
Some conservatives: "Toxic masculinity" doesn't exist and is just another liberal label used to denigrate men (conservatives? Republicans?)
Some conservatives: "Toxic masculinity" is just a phrase that can be used to accuse any man of anything anytime, so it's meaningless.
Some conservatives: "Toxic masculinity" is just another word for "being a jerk" and we don't need the phrase. it's more harmful than beneficial.
I disagree with all of those positions in all of their forms. "Toxic masculinity" is real. If it were not, there would have been no #MeToo movement. If it were not, there would not be a network of women's shelters across the country. If it were not, women would earn as much as men for doing the same work and doing it just as well.
And my wife reminded me, last night, that it is not limited to male/female exchanges. She told this story from her childhood. When she was in middle school, an eighth grader (who was slight, and shy, and fearful) was being bullied by a sixth grader who outweighed him by 20+ pounds, and two of his friends. The child ran into his home to escape the bullies, and was met by his father. Upon realizing what was happening (the boy was in tears) he screamed, "get out there and fight them! No son of mine is going to be a sissy wimp!" and then shoved the boy back out the door. The boy stood sobbing on the front porch of the house. Even the bullies knew this was over the top, and slowly walked away.
Masculinity is defined as "qualities or attributes regarded as characteristic of men." Some men exaggerate those qualities and apply them in harmful and abusive ways. Yes - they are being jerks. But the term "toxic masculinity" simply defines what kind of jerk we're talking about. A bully is also a specific kind of jerk. A liar is another specific kind of jerk. There is nothing wrong with calling out a specific kind of "jerk" and talking about it.
No one (as far as I know) is calling all male actions "toxic." And it is true that the same action can be toxic or nontoxic depending on what motivates it. It is also true that telling someone else what motivates them is always a problem (though I have to admit that I find the objection on this front somewhat ironic, given the number of times I have been told what my motivations are on this site). Not all forms of "toxic masculinity" are created equal, as I noted. They can range from the more innocuous (e.g., opening the door for the "little woman,") to the more egregious (e.g., nothing the belt for each virgin bedded).
But ignoring the phenomenon seems to me a silly thing to do. And I have to admit that I do not understand the resistance to creating for a name for a thing we need to talk about, and become aware of.
ETA: And at the risk of being accused of "projection," I have found that having these discussions with my wife and others has made me aware of times when I have engaged in some form of "toxic masculinity." I've never engaged in the more egregious forms, but I have engaged in the more subtle forms. Having the conversation raised my awareness, and caused me to re-evaluate and change my behavior as a consequence. Personally, I think that's a good thing. I wish I could say I'm now perfect at it - but I'm not. Color me human.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostLook at the director's YouTube channel. She hates men, and this was made to denigrate masculinity in ANY of its expression.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI don't see how any one person's YouTube channel negates anything I've said. Yes - there are people who will use "Toxic Masculinity" as a mantra to attack people who are not guilty of it. There are also people who will use "Toxic Feminism" as a mantra to attack people who are not guilty of doing anything wrong. There are people who will use "Bullying" as an attack for people who are not bullying. There are people who will hurl the word "liar" at anyone who says something that is not 100% correct. That doesn't make any of these things less real. There are people who engage in toxic masculinity, toxic feminism, bullying, and lying.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostIt's simply another way feminists are attacking masculinity in its different forms. Being an asshat is sufficient a label. Creating yet ANOTHER virtue signaling buzzword and attempting to control the conversation of how far is "too far", like this ridiculous commercial, is part of the feminist playbook. Once it is entrenched in the daily vernacular, it becomes a club with which to silence any and all dissent to feminism.
For the rest - I can only say "wow." I don't recall if you are one of the people constantly berating me for lacking in self-reflection. If you are, you should stop.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostNo - at no point did I say that - or even suggest it. I think all of us are stepped in our culture, and the history of our culture includes elements of "toxic masculinity." If we want to change that, if behooves each of us to examine our lives and see if we are perpetuating any part of that. If not - not. If so - change it.
I have to admit - for a group who likes to pile on me for "avoiding self-reflection," there is an amazing amount of resistance to the idea that perhaps we should all engage in some self-reflection.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostIt is a way SOME feminists are (inappropriately) attacking masculinity in its different forms.
For the rest - I can only say "wow."
I don't recall if you are one of the people constantly berating me for lacking in self-reflection. If you are, you should stop.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostSome, like the director of this ad.
Why? It's the truth.
I am not.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostNo - at no point did I say that - or even suggest it. I think all of us are stepped in our culture, and the history of our culture includes elements of "toxic masculinity." If we want to change that, if behooves each of us to examine our lives and see if we are perpetuating any part of that. If not - not. If so - change it.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostNo - at no point did I say that - or even suggest it.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by seer View PostMost normal women I know like me to open their doors even if I'm doing it just because they are a woman. They don't mind being called darling, or the man paying for dinner. They are not as anal about all this as the whack job feminists...
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostHere in the South calling a waitress darling, honey or sweetie (and being addressed in a similar fashion by them) is just not thought of being condescending but rather as friendly.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostMost normal women I know like me to open their doors even if I'm doing it just because they are a woman. They don't mind being called darling, or the man paying for dinner. They are not as anal about all this as the whack job feminists...
Perhaps it's a regional thing - or maybe it's a question of what circles on travels in.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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