Jobs, Jobs, Jobs!

[Sparko]

So you post an article about effect without cause. Ask "why do families of poor children not give them the support middle class families do? In many cases (certainly not all - but many), they are forced to work multiple jobs just to make ends meet - and do so without things like medical benefits because low-wage jobs are regularly scheduled below 40 hours and considered part-time. And the local/national programs have been widely gutted. Today, less than 30% of the money earmarked for welfare is actually used for cash assistance. Why? Take a read. Indeed, the way assistance is now structured, people are literally penalized for getting work, but also penalized if they do not look for and secure work. It becomes an endless cycle.

Building principles into children is hard work. It requires time and energy. Many of the families I work with are struggling just to keep their heads above water. The groups I work with are quick to spot the person who is just out to "game the system" and they are quickly disconnected. But they are the minority, at least in this area. And we often cannot meet all of the need for those truly struggling to escape poverty, because we lack the resources.

In the face of that, dismissive attitudes like Sparko's are, frankly, offensive. They represent a broad attitude within many people on the right that is the inverse of the American dream. If we are the land of opportunity, it follows that anyone not "making it" must be lazy and shiftless. Some are. The majority are not. The majority are truly struggling - and deserve our support and our encouragement - not our ridicule and dismissal.

Perhaps the Christians with those attitudes should do a little selective reading.

Not all are lazy and shiftless. Some are clueless and get caught up in gangs or drugs. Those that WANT to get ahead will get into training and programs like you are talking about and work their way out of poverty. Those are the people I was talking about. They can make it if they try. Those who want to game the system or don't give a crap won't. But it is never the employer's fault. They are the one's offering the jobs. Some are good jobs others are poor jobs. They are all "opportunities" - and nobody has to take something they don't want. Or stay in a job they don't like. Sometimes to climb out of a hole you have to work in the mud and get dirty before you get out. My first job was as a cook at KFC. I hated it. It paid horribly and the boss was a complete jerk. He treated his employees like trash. And yet I worked there to earn money to pay for my education until I had enough knowledge to get a better job. That one was repairing TVs for a shop. It still sucked but it paid more. Then I got a better job. Nobody has to settle for a bad job and I never blamed the employers. They offered me a job, which in the case of KFC I knew would suck, but I took it. It was my decision. I agreed to the job and it paid what I agreed to accept.

[Sparko]

I'm sorry you're offended, OBP - but your posts reflect exactly that. You and Sparko seem to be making the same mistake: assuming that your personal experience must be how it is for everyone else. I know from my own experience that it is not. Indeed, I know that both type of people exist: those who need the help, and those who want to game the system and are lazy and shiftless. As best I can tell, the positions of the pair of you is that the former do not exist.

YOU questioned my PERSONAL experience Carp. Or did you forget?

[One Bad Pig]

I'm sorry you're offended, OBP - but your posts reflect exactly that.

Only in your mind. You read my experiences, and ASSUMED I was seeing what I wanted to see.

You and Sparko seem to be making the same mistake: assuming that your personal experience must be how it is for everyone else. I know from my own experience that it is not. Indeed, I know that both type of people exist: those who need the help, and those who want to game the system and are lazy and shiftless. As best I can tell, the positions of the pair of you is that the former do not exist.

The only one doing any assuming here is you. You are wrong about what I think, but I'm no longer interested in attempting to correct that.

[seer]

This is a classic article about the cycle of poverty. I strongly recommend people take a moment and read it.

So after pouring literally billions and billions of dollars into the poor areas of this country since the "Great Society" how much has the poverty rate actually gone down?

[Sparko]

This is a classic article about the cycle of poverty. I strongly recommend people take a moment and read it.

How ironic. After dismissing OBP's and my experiences you argue we should read about some other family's experience and THAT should count for some reason.

[seer]

Not all are lazy and shiftless. Some are clueless and get caught up in gangs or drugs. Those that WANT to get ahead will get into training and programs like you are talking about and work their way out of poverty. Those are the people I was talking about. They can make it if they try. Those who want to game the system or don't give a crap won't. But it is never the employer's fault. They are the one's offering the jobs. Some are good jobs others are poor jobs. They are all "opportunities" - and nobody has to take something they don't want. Or stay in a job they don't like. Sometimes to climb out of a hole you have to work in the mud and get dirty before you get out. My first job was as a cook at KFC. I hated it. It paid horribly and the boss was a complete jerk. He treated his employees like trash. And yet I worked there to earn money to pay for my education until I had enough knowledge to get a better job. That one was repairing TVs for a shop. It still sucked but it paid more. Then I got a better job. Nobody has to settle for a bad job and I never blamed the employers. They offered me a job, which in the case of KFC I knew would suck, but I took it. It was my decision. I agreed to the job and it paid what I agreed to accept.

I used to paint houses during the day and clean office bathrooms at night. My first full time job was working in a Foundry, dirty, smoke filled, and dangerous.

[seer]

How ironic. After dismissing OBP's and my experiences you argue we should read about some other family's experience and THAT should count for some reason.

Me thinks that Carp is virtue signaling again... How compassionate he is compared to us mean Christians...

[carpedm9587]

How ironic. After dismissing OBP's and my experiences you argue we should read about some other family's experience and THAT should count for some reason.

As I noted, Sparko - it was provided as a counter example to your personal experiences - not as statistical data proving the percentage of either type of person.

Here's the difference: you seem to be saying that your experience shows anyone not making it is shiftless and lazy. I am saying that your experience shows that it is possible for some people to break the cycle of poverty (because you did) and others need help doing that (as with the linked story). I'm not making the assumption that one person's experience reflects the reality for everyone. You are doing that.

[Sparko]

As I noted, Sparko - it was provided as a counter example to your personal experiences - not as statistical data proving the percentage of either type of person.

Here's the difference: you seem to be saying that your experience shows anyone not making it is shiftless and lazy. I am saying that your experience shows that it is possible for some people to break the cycle of poverty (because you did) and others need help doing that (as with the linked story). I'm not making the assumption that one person's experience reflects the reality for everyone. You are doing that.

Even in that article she admits it was largely her own fault. She was on drugs and had other problems. But if she wants to get out of poverty she can. I know a single mother with two kids who's husband died and who had to work two jobs to make it. And she did. She is not rich by any means but she has enough to live on, has a better job now and is no longer "poor" - And she couldn't even GET welfare or food stamps and she needed them. Because she had a low paying job but enough that she didn't qualify for them. So yeah she could have quit her job and got food stamps and be stuck in poverty like the woman in the story, but she said to hell with that and took the job and then got another. And now she has her alcoholic brother living with her who she supports because he IS one of the lazy shiftless ones who won't get a job, but she loves him too much to kick him back on the street.

[carpedm9587]

Look at the three things, get a high school education, don't have children out of wedlock and get a full time job. If you do those three things, only 2% remain in poverty, 75% actually reach the middle class. Are you suggesting the poor are too stupid or immoral to follow these three simple steps?

No - I am suggesting that the poor don't always have the luxury (or skill) to be good parents. Anyone can father/mother a child. It's a biological act. Not everyone can be a good parent. Poor parenting then leads to children who make poor decisions, locking them into the same cycle. And sometimes it's merely a matter of time. By way of example, I am working with one family where the father left, the mother has 3 children, she is working two jobs to make ends meet. Meanwhile, funding has been cut for after-school programs, so the kids come out of school and have no supervision until mom gets home (often after a second shift) in the late evening. She is often out the next morning before the kids are even off to school, leaving the older child (12) to slap together breakfast and get the kids to the bus. This kind of scenario plays out all over.

And again - I am not saying everyone is in such a trap - there ARE lazy and shiftless people looking to game the system. But to treat all of the poor as if they are of that class is unkind - unjust - and simply untrue. They aren't.

And BTW your Biblical references are not about forced charity instituted by the government. I have post more than once on this site what our Church does to help the poor, including feeding close to three hundred every month.

As I have noted many times - government should be the court of last resorts. Family - friends - community - government. The latter is important because it is in the best interests of a country to have an educated, independent, electorate. Poverty is directly linked to crime and healthcare costs. Address poverty, and you significantly reduce the latter, creating a benefit for all. Your "forced charity" is my "enlightened self-interest."

[carpedm9587]

Only in your mind. You read my experiences, and ASSUMED I was seeing what I wanted to see.
The only one doing any assuming here is you. You are wrong about what I think, but I'm no longer interested in attempting to correct that.

Then we are at an end. Thanks for the discussion.

[carpedm9587]

So after pouring literally billions and billions of dollars into the poor areas of this country since the "Great Society" how much has the poverty rate actually gone down?

There is no question in my mind that HOW poverty has been addressed is ineffective. I fault both the Democrats (who tend to create programs without appropriate controls and consequences) and Republicans (who tend to regularly gut programs without regard for outcomes) for that reality. Programs that have shown solid results are defunded (usually by Republicans) and programs with dubious results continue to consume resources (usually pushed by Democrats). And the current climate of "let's not work together" pretty much ensures that will continue indefinitely.

[Sparko]

by the way carp. "Lazy and Shiftless" was your term, not mine. I never said that. That was your characterization of what I said.

[carpedm9587]

Me thinks that Carp is virtue signaling again... How compassionate he is compared to us mean Christians...

Umm.. no. But if that's all you take from the discussion...there's not much I can do about it.

The point of the discussion is to surface need - and challenge stereotypes that are being too broadly applied.

[carpedm9587]

by the way carp. "Lazy and Shiftless" was your term, not mine. I never said that. That was your characterization of what I said.

Not all are lazy and shiftless. Some are clueless and get caught up in gangs or drugs. Those that WANT to get ahead will get into training and programs like you are talking about and work their way out of poverty.

The message is fairly clear: anyone who is poor CAN get out if they want to - and if they don't - they are either lazy, shiftless, or caught up in gangs and drugs. But that is not the truth - and not the reality. Indeed, most of the poor have little or no medical coverage - and one medical incident wipes them out. Let alone one problem with the car (if they have a car), or a sick/elderly parent, and the list goes on.

I repeat - your generalization is a gross caricature. It is both untrue - and (frankly) unworthy of you.