Originally posted by carpedm9587
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI'm sorry you're offended, OBP - but your posts reflect exactly that. You and Sparko seem to be making the same mistake: assuming that your personal experience must be how it is for everyone else. I know from my own experience that it is not. Indeed, I know that both type of people exist: those who need the help, and those who want to game the system and are lazy and shiftless. As best I can tell, the positions of the pair of you is that the former do not exist.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI'm sorry you're offended, OBP - but your posts reflect exactly that.
You and Sparko seem to be making the same mistake: assuming that your personal experience must be how it is for everyone else. I know from my own experience that it is not. Indeed, I know that both type of people exist: those who need the help, and those who want to game the system and are lazy and shiftless. As best I can tell, the positions of the pair of you is that the former do not exist.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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So after pouring literally billions and billions of dollars into the poor areas of this country since the "Great Society" how much has the poverty rate actually gone down?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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How ironic. After dismissing OBP's and my experiences you argue we should read about some other family's experience and THAT should count for some reason.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostNot all are lazy and shiftless. Some are clueless and get caught up in gangs or drugs. Those that WANT to get ahead will get into training and programs like you are talking about and work their way out of poverty. Those are the people I was talking about. They can make it if they try. Those who want to game the system or don't give a crap won't. But it is never the employer's fault. They are the one's offering the jobs. Some are good jobs others are poor jobs. They are all "opportunities" - and nobody has to take something they don't want. Or stay in a job they don't like. Sometimes to climb out of a hole you have to work in the mud and get dirty before you get out. My first job was as a cook at KFC. I hated it. It paid horribly and the boss was a complete jerk. He treated his employees like trash. And yet I worked there to earn money to pay for my education until I had enough knowledge to get a better job. That one was repairing TVs for a shop. It still sucked but it paid more. Then I got a better job. Nobody has to settle for a bad job and I never blamed the employers. They offered me a job, which in the case of KFC I knew would suck, but I took it. It was my decision. I agreed to the job and it paid what I agreed to accept.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostHow ironic. After dismissing OBP's and my experiences you argue we should read about some other family's experience and THAT should count for some reason.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostHow ironic. After dismissing OBP's and my experiences you argue we should read about some other family's experience and THAT should count for some reason.
Here's the difference: you seem to be saying that your experience shows anyone not making it is shiftless and lazy. I am saying that your experience shows that it is possible for some people to break the cycle of poverty (because you did) and others need help doing that (as with the linked story). I'm not making the assumption that one person's experience reflects the reality for everyone. You are doing that.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAs I noted, Sparko - it was provided as a counter example to your personal experiences - not as statistical data proving the percentage of either type of person.
Here's the difference: you seem to be saying that your experience shows anyone not making it is shiftless and lazy. I am saying that your experience shows that it is possible for some people to break the cycle of poverty (because you did) and others need help doing that (as with the linked story). I'm not making the assumption that one person's experience reflects the reality for everyone. You are doing that.
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Originally posted by seer View PostLook at the three things, get a high school education, don't have children out of wedlock and get a full time job. If you do those three things, only 2% remain in poverty, 75% actually reach the middle class. Are you suggesting the poor are too stupid or immoral to follow these three simple steps?
And again - I am not saying everyone is in such a trap - there ARE lazy and shiftless people looking to game the system. But to treat all of the poor as if they are of that class is unkind - unjust - and simply untrue. They aren't.
Originally posted by seer View PostAnd BTW your Biblical references are not about forced charity instituted by the government. I have post more than once on this site what our Church does to help the poor, including feeding close to three hundred every month.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostOnly in your mind. You read my experiences, and ASSUMED I was seeing what I wanted to see.
The only one doing any assuming here is you. You are wrong about what I think, but I'm no longer interested in attempting to correct that.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostSo after pouring literally billions and billions of dollars into the poor areas of this country since the "Great Society" how much has the poverty rate actually gone down?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostMe thinks that Carp is virtue signaling again... How compassionate he is compared to us mean Christians...
The point of the discussion is to surface need - and challenge stereotypes that are being too broadly applied.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postby the way carp. "Lazy and Shiftless" was your term, not mine. I never said that. That was your characterization of what I said.Not all are lazy and shiftless. Some are clueless and get caught up in gangs or drugs. Those that WANT to get ahead will get into training and programs like you are talking about and work their way out of poverty.
The message is fairly clear: anyone who is poor CAN get out if they want to - and if they don't - they are either lazy, shiftless, or caught up in gangs and drugs. But that is not the truth - and not the reality. Indeed, most of the poor have little or no medical coverage - and one medical incident wipes them out. Let alone one problem with the car (if they have a car), or a sick/elderly parent, and the list goes on.
I repeat - your generalization is a gross caricature. It is both untrue - and (frankly) unworthy of you.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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