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[rogue06]

Since we are talking about societal values, I would like him to compare Sharia law with traditional Christian values in western society. Especially since he just got through telling me how violent Christians are for saying LBGT are sinners.

Before too much longer there is going to be an interesting implosion on the left as they continue try to simultaneously champion both Islam and the lgbtqqicapf2k+ community.

[Sparko]

Before too much longer there is going to be an interesting implosion on the left as they continue try to simultaneously champion both Islam and the lgbtqqicapf2k+ community.

Cognitive Dissonance.

[One Bad Pig]

Before too much longer there is going to be an interesting implosion on the left as they continue try to simultaneously champion both Islam and the lgbtqqicapf2k+ community.

I expect it won't happen especially soon; Islam appreciates the utility of useful idiots, and the concept of taqiyya pretty much ensures they will remain useful until no longer needed.

[carpedm9587]

Have you read the quran yourself? Have you studied Islam? I have.

Yes - part of an inter-faith project several us did at the seminary.

Not only that but you refuse to see how Muslim's treat women and homosexuals in their society. You condemn me for "violence" because I say homosexuality is a sin. But Christianity doesn't toss homosexuals off of rooftops, or treat women as second class citizens that get beaten by their husbands when they disobey.

Again - in the most conservative theocracies - how Muslim treat women and the LGBTQ+ community is horrendous. MOST Muslims do not do so. Indeed, MOST Muslims around the world treat women and the LGBTQ+ community not all that differently than Christians.

So me telling homosexuals that they are sinning is violence but you telling me my values are wrong is not violence? Go ahead, pull the other one!

Basically. You are a Christian by choice of belief. But the Christian belief is that people who are a certain type by gender identity, sexual orientation, etc. are "bad." You are choosing to act as you are acting. They are who they are. It is simply another form of bigotry against what a person is - rather than a position against another person's position. Apples and oranges.

When a person acts to harm another - one is not committing "violence" to call them on it and make it clear that a civil society will not tolerate that behavior.

The bible is pretty clear on its moral teachings Carp. The various sects differ over different doctrines and traditions. And as I said, not every Christian follows the teachings of Jesus correctly. Their failure doesn't invalidate the standard.

Yeah - you and others keep saying that - and yet - 2500 sects - wide agreement on some things - wide disagreement on others - and everyone says "I have it right." And when a community disagrees strongly enough, it splinters and another "sect" is born. You can wave it away all you wish Sparko - it is the reality of Christianity. Unless things have changed (and I have to admit I have not looked into the numbers recently), Christianity is THE most fragmented religious system in the world.

But I know - I know - all the other sects have it wrong and you have it right. I understand....

[Sparko]

Yes - part of an inter-faith project several us did at the seminary.



Again - in the most conservative theocracies - how Muslim treat women and the LGBTQ+ community is horrendous. MOST Muslims do not do so. Indeed, MOST Muslims around the world treat women and the LGBTQ+ community not all that differently than Christians.

No, that is not true. MOST muslims live in the middle east and Africa where Sharia law is in effect. And even in countries that Sharia law is not in effect the muslims treat women and LBGTQ+ horrendously.

Basically. You are a Christian by choice of belief. But the Christian belief is that people who are a certain type by gender identity, sexual orientation, etc. are "bad." You are choosing to act as you are acting. They are who they are. It is simply another form of bigotry against what a person is - rather than a position against another person's position. Apples and oranges.

When a person acts to harm another - one is not committing "violence" to call them on it and make it clear that a civil society will not tolerate that behavior.

No, Christianity says all people are "bad" - that is why we need Jesus. But your double standard is noted. You can be bigoted against Christians and religion, and that is fine, yet if we tell people they are sinners, we are committing violence.

Yeah - you and others keep saying that - and yet - 2500 sects - wide agreement on some things - wide disagreement on others - and everyone says "I have it right." And when a community disagrees strongly enough, it splinters and another "sect" is born. You can wave it away all you wish Sparko - it is the reality of Christianity. Unless things have changed (and I have to admit I have not looked into the numbers recently), Christianity is THE most fragmented religious system in the world.

But I know - I know - all the other sects have it wrong and you have it right. I understand....

Please list these 2500 sects.

orthodox Christianity (little "o") has as pretty well defined set of core doctrines that the various denominations agree on. And as far as I know, all agree on the moral teachings of Jesus.

[carpedm9587]

No, that is not true. MOST muslims live in the middle east and Africa where Sharia law is in effect. And even in countries that Sharia law is not in effect the muslims treat women and LBGTQ+ horrendously.

Again, Sparko - you seem to be basing your observations on news bites and "official policies." The loudest voice doesn't necessarily represent the majority. The stories that get play don't necessarily represent the majority. Your statement is the equivalent of saying, "most Muslim's practice honor killing." That actually isn't true. While the extremists/fundamentalists do (amazing how many times extremisim and fundamentalism is associated with violence), the vast majority of Muslims do not engage in that practice. You are making claims with no substance. So here are some statement that ARE true (I think):

- Most Muslim theocracies countries have horrendous laws about homosexuals and women.
- Muslim theocracies have more horrendous acts towards homosexuals and women per capita than non-Muslim countries (this one I have some doubts about; I cannot find this type of data one way or the other, and many other countries have some pretty ugly laws concerning these things - including the U.S. But the statement seems likely.)

No, Christianity says all people are "bad" - that is why we need Jesus. But your double standard is noted. You can be bigoted against Christians and religion, and that is fine, yet if we tell people they are sinners, we are committing violence.

Actually - I'm not bigoted the least against "Christianity." My wife is Christian (though you probably would not accept her as such). Half my extended family is Christian. Almost my entire wife's family is Christian. I have no issue with any of them on the basis of their Christianity - nor with anyone else on the basis of their Christianity. I look at the details and individual issues and address those specifically. So your "Christian-inspired" position that wanton killing is a sin is one I admire (and hold myself). Your "Christian-inspired" that two people are "sinning" if they engage in an act of love and happen to have the same genitalia I find reprehensible and reject as a moral principle. I suspect I actually accept and admire and practice a significant amount of my moral code in line with yours. After all - we're both human, both live on this planet, live in similar societies, so our moral code is going to align quite well. Being Christian or non-Christian has nothing to do with it, IMO.

Please list these 2500 sects.

orthodox Christianity (little "o") has as pretty well defined set of core doctrines that the various denominations agree on. And as far as I know, all agree on the moral teachings of Jesus.

You can find a partial list here. Note that I specifically said "sects," and I was apparently somewhat light. There are:

World Christianity consists of 6 major ecclesiastico-cultural blocs, divided into 300 major ecclesiastical traditions, composed [sic] of over 33,000 distinct denominations in 238 countries

However, I have no intention of spending my time providing a detailed list, Sparko. But if you do a quick comparison of Christianity with pretty much any other religion, it appears to be THE most fragmented, by far. And the fragmentation continues on a fairly consistent basis. This is one of the things that led me to abandon a theocentric worldview. I found that, where science tends to unity, religious beliefs tend to disunity.

Generally - when something is based on a "truth," there is a tendency (over time) for beliefs to unify around that truth. In science, if a new theory is proposed - it is initially not unified around. But as mechanisms for testing the theory arise, as it is successfully used to make predictions, and as it is successfully used to push forward some aspect of human life, belief about the theory unifies and consensus builds. But religion shows the exact opposite path: over time - it's adherents fracture into an ever-expanding set of subgroups that differ on one or more aspects of that belief. Little wonder that humanity has so many gods, so many theories about these gods, and so many contradictory beliefs about what these gods are, want, or do.

As for agreeing on the moral teachings, Sparko - you guys can't even agree on whether or not mocking and name calling is "moral." You and MM and Pix and others like you defend it based on Jesus' actions and words (and this type of violence does appear regularly in the NT). Other sects and individuals find it reprehensible and point to Jesus' "turn the other cheek" injunction. We're not talking about people who hold a view - and then fail to live up to it. We're talking about people who defend a moral position. While there are core beliefs that are as widely held in Christianity as they are in the general human population, there does not appear to be any more or less cohesion of moral code within Christianity than there is among us heathens.

• There are pro-choice Christians; there are pro-life Christians.
• There are pro death sentence Christians; there are anti-death sentence Christians.
• There are Christians who believe mocking and bullying is a sin; there are Christians who believe mocking and bullying is justified.
• There are Christians who believe killing an abortion doctor is moral; there are Christians (most of them) who believe it is not.
• There are Christians for same-sex unions; there are Christians against same sex unions
• There are Christians for transgender rights; there are Christians against transgender rights
• There are Christians for leadership roles for women; there are Christians against leadership roles for women.
• There are Christians for racial segregation; there are Christians against racial segregation.

The list could go on and one and on. And it's not just one or two Christians (well, maybe except the "killing abortion doctor's" part), it is often entire sects - and even entire denominations. And each one will point to Jesus and the bible and say, "see - it says so!" And, of course, there is the pervasive rejection of others as "true Christians." After all - if they hold a position you don't hold, they aren't REALLY Christians. Of course, they say the same about you.

From the outside looking in, it's an amazing mess. Of course, it's no neater outside of Christianity. Morality is messy. Always has been.

[One Bad Pig]

Actually - I'm not bigoted the least against "Christianity."
<goes on to portray Christianity in the least charitable light possible.>

Go on, pull the other one.

[lilpixieofterror]

Again, Sparko - you seem to be basing your observations on news bites and "official policies." The loudest voice doesn't necessarily represent the majority. The stories that get play don't necessarily represent the majority. Your statement is the equivalent of saying, "most Muslim's practice honor killing." That actually isn't true. While the extremists/fundamentalists do (amazing how many times extremisim and fundamentalism is associated with violence), the vast majority of Muslims do not engage in that practice. You are making claims with no substance. So here are some statement that ARE true (I think):

- Most Muslim theocracies countries have horrendous laws about homosexuals and women.
- Muslim theocracies have more horrendous acts towards homosexuals and women per capita than non-Muslim countries (this one I have some doubts about; I cannot find this type of data one way or the other, and many other countries have some pretty ugly laws concerning these things - including the U.S. But the statement seems likely.)



Actually - I'm not bigoted the least against "Christianity." My wife is Christian (though you probably would not accept her as such). Half my extended family is Christian. Almost my entire wife's family is Christian. I have no issue with any of them on the basis of their Christianity - nor with anyone else on the basis of their Christianity. I look at the details and individual issues and address those specifically. So your "Christian-inspired" position that wanton killing is a sin is one I admire (and hold myself). Your "Christian-inspired" that two people are "sinning" if they engage in an act of love and happen to have the same genitalia I find reprehensible and reject as a moral principle. I suspect I actually accept and admire and practice a significant amount of my moral code in line with yours. After all - we're both human, both live on this planet, live in similar societies, so our moral code is going to align quite well. Being Christian or non-Christian has nothing to do with it, IMO.



You can find a partial list here. Note that I specifically said "sects," and I was apparently somewhat light. There are:

World Christianity consists of 6 major ecclesiastico-cultural blocs, divided into 300 major ecclesiastical traditions, composed [sic] of over 33,000 distinct denominations in 238 countries

However, I have no intention of spending my time providing a detailed list, Sparko. But if you do a quick comparison of Christianity with pretty much any other religion, it appears to be THE most fragmented, by far. And the fragmentation continues on a fairly consistent basis. This is one of the things that led me to abandon a theocentric worldview. I found that, where science tends to unity, religious beliefs tend to disunity.

Generally - when something is based on a "truth," there is a tendency (over time) for beliefs to unify around that truth. In science, if a new theory is proposed - it is initially not unified around. But as mechanisms for testing the theory arise, as it is successfully used to make predictions, and as it is successfully used to push forward some aspect of human life, belief about the theory unifies and consensus builds. But religion shows the exact opposite path: over time - it's adherents fracture into an ever-expanding set of subgroups that differ on one or more aspects of that belief. Little wonder that humanity has so many gods, so many theories about these gods, and so many contradictory beliefs about what these gods are, want, or do.

As for agreeing on the moral teachings, Sparko - you guys can't even agree on whether or not mocking and name calling is "moral." You and MM and Pix and others like you defend it based on Jesus' actions and words (and this type of violence does appear regularly in the NT). Other sects and individuals find it reprehensible and point to Jesus' "turn the other cheek" injunction. We're not talking about people who hold a view - and then fail to live up to it. We're talking about people who defend a moral position. While there are core beliefs that are as widely held in Christianity as they are in the general human population, there does not appear to be any more or less cohesion of moral code within Christianity than there is among us heathens.

• There are pro-choice Christians; there are pro-life Christians.
• There are pro death sentence Christians; there are anti-death sentence Christians.
• There are Christians who believe mocking and bullying is a sin; there are Christians who believe mocking and bullying is justified.
• There are Christians who believe killing an abortion doctor is moral; there are Christians (most of them) who believe it is not.
• There are Christians for same-sex unions; there are Christians against same sex unions
• There are Christians for transgender rights; there are Christians against transgender rights
• There are Christians for leadership roles for women; there are Christians against leadership roles for women.
• There are Christians for racial segregation; there are Christians against racial segregation.

The list could go on and one and on. And it's not just one or two Christians (well, maybe except the "killing abortion doctor's" part), it is often entire sects - and even entire denominations. And each one will point to Jesus and the bible and say, "see - it says so!" And, of course, there is the pervasive rejection of others as "true Christians." After all - if they hold a position you don't hold, they aren't REALLY Christians. Of course, they say the same about you.

From the outside looking in, it's an amazing mess. Of course, it's no neater outside of Christianity. Morality is messy. Always has been.

[rogue06]

You can find a partial list here. Note that I specifically said "sects," and I was apparently somewhat light. There are:

World Christianity consists of 6 major ecclesiastico-cultural blocs, divided into 300 major ecclesiastical traditions, composed [sic] of over 33,000 distinct denominations in 238 countries

This atheist meme again

To say that number (and different sources give different numbers that result in tens of thousands in difference) is grossly inflated is an understatement and the methodology employed to arrive at these figures is ridiculous. It is based on a radically open definition of what "denomination" is. For instance under the definition used to arrive at that number if there two independent Baptist churches on each side of the street, each one of them is considered a different denomination. In fact every independent Baptist church is deemed to be a different denomination by the definition used to arrive at this figure.

The numbers for the World Christian Encyclopedia list was supplied by the Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary and it is telling how they arrived at their claims which can be found in the Methodology from the Atlas of Global Christianity resource ([ATTACH=CONFIG]34495[/ATTACH] to Adrift)

Source: Methodology from the Atlas of Global Christianity

First, for each major tradition, a denomination present in more than one country was counted as one denomination per each country. Thus, for example, the Russian Orthodox Church in Russia was considered a separate denomination from the Russian Orthodox Church in Kazakhstan. Second, the Anglican tradition was considered to consist of one denomination in each country in which it is present (169 in all). Third, the Roman Catholic Church was considered to consist of 239 denominations; however, about half of all Christians globally are Roman Catholics.

© Copyright Original Source

So they count as a different denomination for each country they are in. IOW, Catholics in the U.S. are a different denomination than those in Mexico. And both are different denominations from those in Spain. And the Catholics in France are a separate denomination than the Catholics in the U.S., Mexico and Spain. And on and on.

Further, within Roman Catholicism there are claimed to be a number of different "denominations" since those that cobble together these lists tend to call the various orders within it separate denominations. They all follow Roman Catholic teachings but have differences that could almost be called cosmetic. That's like going to two Southern Baptist, or Methodist or Lutheran churches across town from one another and noticing the differences in how they do things and then declaring them separate denominations.

Moreover, every single Bible society or church club is also considered to be a different denomination than the church or churches that it is affiliated with.

Finally, many groups that aren't even Christian often get added in to help inflate the number. Some are Christian denominations in the same way that Islam is a Christian or Jewish denomination

If you want to understand just how ridiculous this figure is try to name just twenty Christian denominations from memory alone. If there were tens of thousands of them someone shouldn't have any difficulty rattling off a hundred so a mere twenty ought to be a real breeze.

[Sparko]

You may have the last word, Carp.

[seer]

Carp:
[*]There are pro-choice Christians; there are pro-life Christians.

Show me the Biblical justification for killing our own children

[*]There are pro death sentence Christians; there are anti-death sentence Christians.

Show me where scripture says that the death penalty is wrong?

[*]There are Christians who believe mocking and bullying is a sin; there are Christians who believe mocking and bullying is justified.

Who thinks bullying is good thing?

[*]There are Christians who believe killing an abortion doctor is moral; there are Christians (most of them) who believe it is not.

Show me the Biblical justification for killing abortion providers.

[*]There are Christians for same-sex unions; there are Christians against same sex unions

Show me the Biblical justification for homosexual marriage.

[*]There are Christians for transgender rights; there are Christians against transgender rights

Show me the Biblical justification for transgender rights.

[*]There are Christians for leadership roles for women; there are Christians against leadership roles for women.

Show me the Biblical justification for women in leadership roles, in the Church.

[*]There are Christians for racial segregation; there are Christians against racial segregation.

Show me the Biblical justification for racial segregation.

[carpedm9587]

Carp:
[*]There are pro-choice Christians; there are pro-life Christians.

Show me the Biblical justification for killing our own children

[*]There are pro death sentence Christians; there are anti-death sentence Christians.

Show me where scripture says that the death penalty is wrong?

[*]There are Christians who believe mocking and bullying is a sin; there are Christians who believe mocking and bullying is justified.

Who thinks bullying is good thing?

[*]There are Christians who believe killing an abortion doctor is moral; there are Christians (most of them) who believe it is not.

Show me the Biblical justification for killing abortion providers.

[*]There are Christians for same-sex unions; there are Christians against same sex unions

Show me the Biblical justification for homosexual marriage.

[*]There are Christians for transgender rights; there are Christians against transgender rights

Show me the Biblical justification for transgender rights.

[*]There are Christians for leadership roles for women; there are Christians against leadership roles for women.

Show me the Biblical justification for women in leadership roles, in the Church.

[*]There are Christians for racial segregation; there are Christians against racial segregation.

Show me the Biblical justification for racial segregation.

Seer - I don't get caught up in biblical debates. It pretty much always goes the same way: disagreement on interpretation and each side justifying their position. The bible is not my "basis for life" so I don't get into the business of defending/arguing other people's interpretations of the book. You will have to have those arguments/discussions with the people who hold those views.

Of course - at the end - the highest probability is that you will walk away claiming you have "proven" your position correct, and they will do the same. It's a somewhat pointless exercise, IMO, because there is no way to resolve the dispute.

[carpedm9587]

This atheist meme again

I thought you liked memes!

Seriously, Rogue - I don't typically cite the 33,000 sects number because it seems to me to simply be out of the ball park, mostly for the reasons you cite. To me, a new sect is one that traces its teaching authority to a different authoritative body - resulting in differences in doctrine and theology (to various degrees). By that definition, the 2,500 number has always seemed to be the more regular and consistent number.

But there is no question that the total number of denominations/sects increases - it does not decrease. There are few (if any?) instances of sects that have divided being rejoined. Personally, I don't know of any - but I cannot claim that I know for a fact it has never happened.

[carpedm9587]

Go on, pull the other one.

Wow...if you think that assessment was "the east charitable light possible," you have lived a pretty sheltered life....

ETA: That entire post basic basically boiled down to: "Christians, like the rest of the human family, are inconsistent."

[Sparko]

Seer - I don't get caught up in biblical debates. It pretty much always goes the same way: disagreement on interpretation and each side justifying their position. The bible is not my "basis for life" so I don't get into the business of defending/arguing other people's interpretations of the book. You will have to have those arguments/discussions with the people who hold those views.

Of course - at the end - the highest probability is that you will walk away claiming you have "proven" your position correct, and they will do the same. It's a somewhat pointless exercise, IMO, because there is no way to resolve the dispute.

Then why did you go off on a long rabbit trail with me when I said the solution to societies problem was Jesus?