Originally posted by Roy
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Originally posted by JimL View PostI really don't think so, Roy. By my logic, if all of time exists from an external perspective, which is Sparko's argument, then all of time exists whether it is experienced that way from within or not. I don't see any logical way around that understanding, and neither Sparko, nor anyone else on the other side of the issue has presented a logical way around that fact. They continue to contradict themselves with the "god knows because you chose" argument, while at the same time arguing that what you chose has always existed since the beginning of time.
I don't think Sparko is dumb, just wrong.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostIf God is present at all times, then he exist 'now' in each of these 'places'.
That would be one way to express it, but if 'sufficient certainty' is 100%, then the difference between 'knowing' and 'predicting' (when evaluating infallibility) is indistinguishable. Indeed, to predict with 100% certainty is in fact to be infallible - yes? But to predict has no capacity to affect the choice as long as that prediction is unknown to the chooser.
Switching back and forth between the two isn't conducive to valid arguments.
*This doesn't mean there aren't other arguments that do work, only that the one I'm using isn't one of them.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostIf time is a plane instead of a line, it might not work out like you say, as each conversation back is a retrocausal event that produces a new timeline in the plane, where the future self doing the calling is 1 iteration behind whatever mayhem would become of the call :)
Jim
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Originally posted by JimL View PostThat is choosing #1 ya dope. That's the B-theory where all of time exists and god sees it all from and external perspective. If it all exists so that god can see it all from an external perspective, then it is all there from any perspective. Are you really so dumb that you can't understand that?
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Originally posted by JimL View PostI really don't think so, Roy. By my logic, if all of time exists from an external perspective, which is Sparko's argument, then all of time exists whether it is experienced that way from within or not. I don't see any logical way around that understanding, and neither Sparko, nor anyone else on the other side of the issue has presented a logical way around that fact. They continue to contradict themselves with the "god knows because you chose" argument, while at the same time arguing that what you chose has always existed since the beginning of time.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostYou accidentally said it correctly. Your FREE WILL decision is inevitable because you will freely choose it.
YOU. Not God. YOU. Using your free will.You will walk to the store and get the eggs because YOU want to.
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Originally posted by Roy View PostI agree. But I find the arguments difficult to derive/follow, especially when considering variations and possible paradoxes.
I don't think Sparko is dumb, just wrong.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostIf all of time exists then all actions and choices exist. Correct. Now you have to show WHY each of those actions and choices were made. If they were all made freely, then the fact that they all exist at once doesn't make a difference.
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Originally posted by Roy View PostJim, please decide whether (i) God knows all about the past and present and can therefore predict our choices, or (ii) God knows what our choices are because he's seen them from the future (or both). They may lead to similar outcomes, but they aren't the same situation, they have different consequences, and my argument against the latter doesn't work against the former because the premises don't hold.*
Switching back and forth between the two isn't conducive to valid arguments.
*This doesn't mean there aren't other arguments that do work, only that the one I'm using isn't one of them.
I do prefer, when reasoning about free will, the predictive form.
JimLast edited by oxmixmudd; 02-08-2019, 09:16 AM.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post- sorry about that. My ambivalence here reflects my belief that these are just two different ways of understanding the same phenomenon. They do have different consequences as we observe them, but the two together, I believe, more closely approximate what would be the reality of a timeless being that exists at all times at once yet is unchanging. I'd have to hearken back to the old analogy of a 3d object intersecting a plane. A cube could look alternately like a point, a triangle, a trapezoid, a rectangle, or a square depending on what part of it intersects and at what angle. Beings in the plane might argue they are all different things, but we would understand they are all just different views in a 2d world of the same 3d object.
It do prefer, when reasoning about free will, the predictive form.
Jim
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Originally posted by JimL View PostJim, would you agree that if god can see all of time, past, present and most importantly for our discussion, the future, then all of time must therefore exist?
JimMy brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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So, what you ate for breakfast yesterday is fixed in time and can never be changed. It is a frozen moment in the timeline of the universe. It was going to happen because it did happen. But it doesn't change the fact that the REASON it happened was because you freely made it happen. Whether God knew about your choice a million years ago, or me knowing about it today doesn't change the fact that you made a specific choice yesterday. It was inevitable.
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostNo - I can't agree with that as I understand you to mean it. God 'seeing' 'All of time' can mean multiple timelines,
multiple possibilities in an indeterminate or unrealized state,
retro causal connections, and likely others, none of which would map directly into the 'block universe' concept you tend towards.
You can't just say stuff, you have to make logical sense of it to yourself and others, if you mean for it to be a serious argument.
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