Trump's Christian supporters are unchristian

[Mountain Man]

Jim, why don't you just refute with your own argument what I said. Tell me how an omniscient creator doesn't know the end of all that he creates, and by end I mean all of time, and if you admit that he knows the end of all that he creates, and that if he knows it before he even creates it, then tell me how it is that any of what he foreknows can be changed by the created. None of you will answer that question.

What you're not getting is that even if we grant all of your premises as stated, that doesn't prove your conclusion.

P1: An omniscient creator knows the end of all that he creates
P2: An omniscient creator knows the end before he creates
P3: We, as the created, will not do other than what the creator foreknows
C: Therefore, we do not have freewill <-- This is a non-sequitur

[JimL]

What you're not getting is that even if we grant all of your premises as stated, that doesn't prove your conclusion.

P1: An omniscient creator knows the end of all that he creates
P2: An omniscient creator knows the end before he creates
P3: We, as the created, will not do other than what the creator foreknows
C: Therefore, we do not have freewill <-- This is a non-sequitur

premise 3 you have wrong. 3) Therefore we as the created, can not do other than what the creator forknew before he even created us.

[Mountain Man]

premise 3 you have wrong. 3) Therefore we as the created, can not do other than what the creator forknew before he even created us.

Saying that we can not do other than what the creator foreknew is just another way of asserting that we lack freewill, so now we have:

P1: An omniscient creator knows the end of all that he creates
P2: An omniscient creator knows the end before he creates
P3: We, as the created, can not do other than what the creator foreknows <-- This assumes the conclusion
C: Therefore, we do not have freewill

[Sparko]

yeah, except I didn't say existed forever, I said it existed in it's entirety. Big difference.

You said:

if all of time exists, so that it can be observed in its entirety, and has, since it's creation, always existed,

So, explain your point then. In what way does god know what will happen tomorrow? If your argument is "because from outside of time god can see it all" then that means it is all there, that all of time exists, Sparko. The future is closed, it doesn't change. it can't been seen unless it exists, correct?

Imagine the universe ended today. You are here at the end of all time. There is no tomorrow. So looking back on the entire universe from this perspective, all choices have been made. Were they made freely, or does your knowledge from this perspective at the end mean that it was all determined?

What does the you of 10 years ago think about his future choices, which to you now is in the past? To him the future doesn't even exist yet, but to you, sitting here at the end, you know everything he will do. The past is a block universe. Everything is fixed from your current point of view. But NOT to your past self living in the block universe. To him the future doesn't exist and everything he does is done freely.

[JimL]

Saying that we can not do other than what the creator foreknew is just another way of asserting that we lack freewill, so now we have:

P1: An omniscient creator knows the end of all that he creates
P2: An omniscient creator knows the end before he creates
P3: We as the created can not do other than what the creator foreknows <-- This assumes the conclusion
C: Therefore, we do not have freewill

P1: An omniscient creator foreknows the end of all that he creates
P2: An omniscient creator foreknows the end of all that he creates before he creates it
P3: That which is foreknown by the creator can not be other than what is foreknown
C: Therefore, the creation is fixed, no free will.

[JimL]

You said:



Always existed since its creation. You re-post it and still can't see it. Like I said, got to work on the reading comprehension, Sparko.

Imagine the universe ended today. You are here at the end of all time. There is no tomorrow. So looking back on the entire universe from this perspective, all choices have been made. Were they made freely, or does your knowledge from this perspective at the end mean that it was all determined?

What does the you of 10 years ago think about his future choices, which to you now is in the past? To him the future doesn't even exist yet, but to you, sitting here at the end, you know everything he will do. The past is a block universe. Everything is fixed from your current point of view. But NOT to your past self living in the block universe. To him the future doesn't exist and everything he does is done freely.

Egad! Sparko, you are so confused. Simple question. In what way does god know the future from your point of view? Is it your idea that god knows the future because he is outside of time and can therefore see it all at once, past, present, and future?

[Mountain Man]

P1: An omniscient creator foreknows the end of all that he creates
P2: An omniscient creator foreknows the end of all that he creates before he creates it
P3: That which is foreknown by the creator can not be other than what is foreknown
C: Therefore, the creation is fixed, no free will.

Same problem. P3 assumes the conclusion making your argument circular.

[JimL]

Same problem. P3 assumes the conclusion making your argument circular.

No, it doesn't. That which is foreknown by its creator can not be other than what is foreknown by its creator. That you can't see the logic in that is not surprising to me, like I said, no logic will ever get through your defenses, MM.

[Mountain Man]

No, it doesn't. That which is foreknown by the creator of it can not be other than what is foreknown by the creator. That you can't see the logic in that is not surprising to me, like I said, no logic will ever get through your defenses, MM.

Your lack of self-awareness would be more amusing if it wasn't such a common thing for you.

Here is your argument:

P1: An omniscient creator foreknows the end of all that he creates
P2: An omniscient creator foreknows the end of all that he creates before he creates it
P3: That which is foreknown by the creator can not be other than what is foreknown
C: Therefore, the creation is fixed, no free will.

The phrase "can not be other than what is foreknown" is the same as saying that creation is fixed, so your argument is essentially:

P1: An omniscient creator foreknows the end of all that he creates
P2: An omniscient creator foreknows the end of all that he creates before he creates it
P3: That which is foreknown by the creator is fixed
C: Therefore, the creation is fixed, no free will.

As you can see, P3 simply states your conclusion, making this a circular argument.

Now I suppose you could try and solve this by rewording C as follows:

P1: An omniscient creator foreknows the end of all that he creates
P2: An omniscient creator foreknows the end of all that he creates before he creates it
P3: That which is foreknown by the creator can not be other than what is foreknown
C: Therefore, there is no free will.

And now we're right back to your conclusion being a non sequitur because it doesn't follow that just because God foreknows my choices that my choices are therefore not made of my own free will.

Suppose God places three boxes before you and asks you to open one. He foreknows that you will open the middle box, but it was not necessary that you open the middle box because it was possible for you to have chosen one of the other boxes, in which case, God's foreknowledge would have been that you chose one of the other boxes. In other words, God's foreknowledge did not constrain your ability to freely choose. If creation is "fixed" then it's only in the sense that you and I can not travel backwards in time to make different freewill choices.

[Tassman]

And now we're right back to your conclusion being a non sequitur because it doesn't follow that just because God foreknows my choices that my choices are therefore not made of my own free will.

Suppose God places three boxes before you and asks you to open one. He foreknows that you will open the middle box, but it was not necessary that you open the middle box because it was possible for you to have chosen one of the other boxes, in which case, God's foreknowledge would have been that you chose one of the other boxes. In other words, God's foreknowledge did not constrain your ability to freely choose. If creation is "fixed" then it's only in the sense that you and I can not travel backwards in time to make different freewill choices.

You may think that you have the choice of what box you will open but in fact you do not. It was not

[Roy]

You may think that you have the choice of what box you will open but in fact you do not. It was not

Another way to examine this question is to look at past events.

We know that Mark Chapman chose to shoot John Lennon.

Now that we know this, because it is in the past for us, is it possible for Mark Chapman to choose not to shoot John Lennon?

[Tassman]

Is that a given? Omniscience simply means to know all that it is possible to know,

so how is it possible to know the choices of a freewill being prior to his existence?

You are assuming that we are "freewill beings."

But like I told Jimmy, even if we accept your unsupported premise, it does not prove that God causes our freewill choices.

[Tassman]

Another way to examine this question is to look at past events.

We know that Mark Chapman chose to shoot John Lennon.

Now that we know this, because it is in the past for us, is it possible for Mark Chapman to choose not to shoot John Lennon?

Well to be consistent with my argument I would have to say that the omniscient God has eternally known that Mark Chapman would choose to shoot John Lennon at a particular point in time.

[JimL]

Your lack of self-awareness would be more amusing if it wasn't such a common thing for you.

Here is your argument:

P1: An omniscient creator foreknows the end of all that he creates
P2: An omniscient creator foreknows the end of all that he creates before he creates it
P3: That which is foreknown by the creator can not be other than what is foreknown
C: Therefore, the creation is fixed, no free will.

The phrase "can not be other than what is foreknown" is the same as saying that creation is fixed, so your argument is essentially:

P1: An omniscient creator foreknows the end of all that he creates
P2: An omniscient creator foreknows the end of all that he creates before he creates it
P3: That which is foreknown by the creator is fixed
C: Therefore, the creation is fixed, no free will.

As you can see, P3 simply states your conclusion, making this a circular argument.

Now I suppose you could try and solve this by rewording C as follows:

P1: An omniscient creator foreknows the end of all that he creates
P2: An omniscient creator foreknows the end of all that he creates before he creates it
P3: That which is foreknown by the creator can not be other than what is foreknown
C: Therefore, there is no free will.

And now we're right back to your conclusion being a non sequitur because it doesn't follow that just because God foreknows my choices that my choices are therefore not made of my own free will.

Suppose God places three boxes before you and asks you to open one. He foreknows that you will open the middle box, but it was not necessary that you open the middle box because it was possible for you to have chosen one of the other boxes, in which case, God's foreknowledge would have been that you chose one of the other boxes. In other words, God's foreknowledge did not constrain your ability to freely choose. If creation is "fixed" then it's only in the sense that you and I can not travel backwards in time to make different freewill choices.

MM, when are you going to explain how it is that you have free will when every bit of your future was known, existed as knowledge, prior to you even existing? Explain how you, now that you do exist, can change any of your future that existed as knowledge before you existed. Lets see a positive argument from you, rather than an "I don't except your logic" argument.

[oxmixmudd]

Another way to examine this question is to look at past events.

We know that Mark Chapman chose to shoot John Lennon.

Now that we know this, because it is in the past for us, is it possible for Mark Chapman to choose not to shoot John Lennon?

As I see it, it boils down to the difference between (1) God defining the future and (2) God knowing the future. And here is how I would illustrate the difference:

If God defined the future, (1) then the events of the timeline are what they are and could under no circumstances be changed. IOW, even if I could gain access to God's knowledge of the future, I could not change it. I do not have free will.

If God simply (2) knows the future but does not define it, then if I could gain access to God's knowledge. I could in fact change its outcome. (e.g. God would know x, and then I would chose instead to do y). I have free will.

I know of no way to practically test this distinction and if one is only looks at the final state of the universe, the distinction can't be perceived. Nevertheless, it illustrates the difference. If God simply knows the future but does not define it, free-will and foreknowledge/infallibility are not incompatible constructs. The exist independently of each other.

The error in logic then is assuming that God's foreknowledge necessarily implies I do not operate under free will(assuming a necessary causation). Given the two cases above, that is an axiom one must assume and AFAIK can't be proven.


Jim