Trump's Christian supporters are unchristian

[Mountain Man]

And you can't see the contradiction in the above, i.e that "god can see all ends, but nobody's fate is predestined?"

First of all, I simply mean that God can see the infinite possibilities that branch out from each and every decision we make. He knows what will happen if you leave your house and turn right, but he also know what will happen if you turn left, or simply stay home even if only one of those possibilities becomes actual.

Secondly, there's a difference between foreknowledge, and predestination. It's the difference between God predetermining what choices you will be allowed to make, and God knowing what choices you have already made from his unique perspective outside the confines of our temporal reality. I believe the latter is true, but not the former.

[Sparko]

no, not if the soul is not subject to space and time and is always the same in all instances. Keep in mind we get a new body in heaven, nothing physical from this life/universe survives (i.e. elements linked to the physical limitations of our corporal form). While I appreciate and would probably enjoy a bit of brainstorming around the idea as a purely intellectual exercise, I want to emphasize I am NOT trying to flesh out the details and 'invent' a solution to the problem of the guy in Africa that never hears the gospel. I'm saying there are a lot of things we don't know, and even within the context of what we do know there are potential solutions, a sufficient number that we can trust that God is good and faithful and loving and merciful even though some people never hear the gospel and faith in Christ is a requirement for salvation. The Catholics deal with it a different way (I think they allow for some to find their way to heaven if they never hear the Gospel). Some (similar to or exactly what MM suggested) deal with it through strict Calvinism, those whom he foreknew He predestined ..., the people that never hear the Gospel He foreknew would not receive it.


Jim

Well my solution is similar in that God knows who will respond to the gospel he will make sure those who do will hear it - I am a molinist. He controls where and when you are born and he has the ability to reveal himself to anyone he chooses at any time but he doesn't force your choice so it is not calvinism, just setting up the right circumstances to maximize your choices.

But like I said to JimL, God doesn't owe anyone salvation or even a chance at it. If he decided to not give any of us a shot at salvation, he would be justified in doing so. Anything less means God is in OUR debt instead of the other way around.

[Sparko]

Wow, no wonder some of you people are so hateful, you hate yourselves and see your mirror image in everyone else.

Exact opposite JimL. We all love ourselves. You included. Christians just realize how lucky we are that God forgives us despite our failings. Which makes us want to do the same for those who have sinned against us. If we are forgiven so much, we can surely forgive the petty trespasses against us. And we want the same forgiveness we receive from God for you too, JimL. I actually say prayers for you from time to time, believe it or not.

[Cow Poke]

Wow, no wonder some of you people are so hateful, you hate yourselves and see your mirror image in everyone else.

Hateful? Jim, you're my very most favorite anti-Christian bigot!

[JimL]

First of all, I simply mean that God can see the infinite possibilities that branch out from each and every decision we make. He knows what will happen if you leave your house and turn right, but he also know what will happen if you turn left, or simply stay home even if only one of those possibilities becomes actual.

Okay, but I know from past discussions with you that you believe in the contradiction that the god who created you and knows your fate isn't at the same time the cause of that fate.
Secondly, there's a difference between foreknowledge, and predestination. It's the difference between God predetermining what choices you will be allowed to make, and God knowing what choices you have already made from his unique perspective outside the confines of our temporal reality. I believe the latter is true, but not the former.[/QUOTE]
This, I knew, is what you actually believe. It's a contradiction any way you look at it MM. If god knows your fate, knows your future, knows it before even creating you, then you have no say in what that future will be. How you can't see that is beyond me.

[oxmixmudd]

Well my solution is similar in that God knows who will respond to the gospel he will make sure those who do will hear it - I am a molinist. He controls where and when you are born and he has the ability to reveal himself to anyone he chooses at any time but he doesn't force your choice so it is not calvinism, just setting up the right circumstances to maximize your choices.

But like I said to JimL, God doesn't owe anyone salvation or even a chance at it. If he decided to not give any of us a shot at salvation, he would be justified in doing so. Anything less means God is in OUR debt instead of the other way around.

Yes - Paul makes that argument even more starkly in Romans 9. That God being God can in fact do as he chooses and we really don't have the capacity to decide if it is 'moral' or not. However, most atheists I know recoil at that concept just as vigorously as the concept that some fellow who has never heard the Gospel might through no fault of his own (as we see it from a human perspective) might end up in Hell.

The Scripture says that God has made us in His image, which means that our basic sense of what is good and bad (uncorrupted) alines with His. So even though the theoretical argument can be made that whatever God does is right by definition, I tend to think that God doesn't just go against what we would consider good if we knew all the factors that drive God's decisions to do what He does. We can't know all that, so we can't validate that, but it seems a logical consequence of God being good, loving, and having made us in His image.



Jim

[Mountain Man]

Okay, but I know from past discussions with you that you believe in the contradiction that the god who created you and knows your fate isn't at the same time the cause of that fate.

Right, because God's foreknowledge is the result of our decisions, not the cause. There's no contradiction.

[Sparko]

Yes - Paul makes that argument even more starkly in Romans 9. That God being God can in fact do as he chooses and we really don't have the capacity to decide if it is 'moral' or not. However, most atheists I know recoil at that concept just as vigorously as the concept that some fellow who has never heard the Gospel might through no fault of his own (as we see it from a human perspective) might end up in Hell.

The Scripture says that God has made us in His image, which means that our basic sense of what is good and bad (uncorrupted) alines with His. So even though the theoretical argument can be made that whatever God does is right by definition, I tend to think that God doesn't just go against what we would consider good if we knew all the factors that drive God's decisions to do what He does. We can't know all that, so we can't validate that, but it seems a logical consequence of God being good, loving, and having made us in His image.



Jim

You think that if God just sent us all to hell that wouldn't be "good?"

I disagree. We are by definition evil. We have rebelled against God. We sinned. God destroying evil is "good" and it is "just" - so he if did send us all to hell, that would be God being Good. That he doesn't shows he is also merciful. But he can't be unjust, so he had to punish the sin somehow, thus Jesus, God in the Flesh. The Judge passed the sentence, then paid the sentence himself instead of us. All we have to do is have faith in him and accept him as our Lord. Or not. It's our choice.

[oxmixmudd]

Okay, but I know from past discussions with you that you believe in the contradiction that the god who created you and knows your fate isn't at the same time the cause of that fate.
Secondly, there's a difference between foreknowledge, and predestination. It's the difference between God predetermining what choices you will be allowed to make, and God knowing what choices you have already made from his unique perspective outside the confines of our temporal reality. I believe the latter is true, but not the former.
This, I knew, is what you actually believe. It's a contradiction any way you look at it MM. If god knows your fate, knows your future, knows it before even creating you, then you have no say in what that future will be. How you can't see that is beyond me.

This sort of absolute confidence in your own reasoning and knowledge is part of what hinders you JimL. Consider a chaotic process. We can't predict exactly which path it might take on its journey, but we know its general course and destination. for example, look at Saturn's rings. We can't predict the exact path of a shepherding moon within the system, but we do know it will stay in the path described by the gap it has left. So we can at least understand it is possible to know the general course of an object without making efforts to enforce what happens along the way. We have a capacity for choice, and we are held accountable for it. But God knows what we are and what we will be. He doesn't have to force anything for that to be true, we are still free agents within certain constraints.

People have explored ideas like this as well in Sci Fi. Where a certain destined event is inevitable even though those operating within it are free to make whatever choices they like. So there is no reason for you to take an absolutist position that this is a 'contradiction'. You don't know enough to say that.

Consider again a 4 dimensional body projected into a 3 dimensional space. Someone can tell you that in 4 dimensions this object is a 'sphere', but your capacity to measure its projection in 3 dimensions will always show it some sort of non-spherical ellipsoid. Unless you allow for the possibility there is more than you know about what it is than what you have access to in a single 3 dimensional fixed projection (e.g. you obstinately refuse to admit a 4 dimensional space is even possible), you will never admit or gain access to the reality this thing is a form of sphere.


Jim

[oxmixmudd]

You think that if God just sent us all to hell that wouldn't be "good?"

I disagree. We are by definition evil. We have rebelled against God. We sinned. God destroying evil is "good" and it is "just" - so he if did send us all to hell, that would be God being Good. That he doesn't shows he is also merciful. But he can't be unjust, so he had to punish the sin somehow, thus Jesus, God in the Flesh. The Judge passed the sentence, then paid the sentence himself instead of us. All we have to do is have faith in him and accept him as our Lord. Or not. It's our choice.

I'm not sure where you get this particular response to what I posted there Sparko. But Obviously even God doesn't think it would be 'good' to just send us all to Hell, because he sent Jesus to make it possible we would all not have to go there. I think you are confusing 'just' with 'good'. Sometimes the consequences of the law are too severe, and something must be done to change the outcome. That is what God did in Christ. It was not 'good' for all of us to go to Hell, even if we deserved it. So He made a way - at incredible cost - for that result to be avoided.


Jim

[Sparko]

I'm not sure where you get this particular response to what I posted there Sparko. But Obviously even God doesn't think it would be 'good' to just send us all to Hell, because he sent Jesus to make it possible we would all not have to go there. I think you are confusing 'just' with 'good'. Sometimes the consequences of the law are too severe, and something must be done to change the outcome. That is what God did in Christ. It was not 'good' for all of us to go to Hell, even if we deserved it. So He made a way - at incredible cost - for that result to be avoided.


Jim

At one point God thought it was "good" to destroy the entire population of the planet except for 8 people.

[JimL]

At one point God thought it was "good" to destroy the entire population of the planet except for 8 people.

Yeah, but god knew that he was going drown everyone in a flood before he even created them. Right?

[JimL]

Right, because God's foreknowledge is the result of our decisions, not the cause. There's no contradiction.

Yep, what'd I tell ya? You believe the nonsensical, MM. They are not our decisions if they were predetermined previous to our even existing. Duh! How do I know, according to such a scenario, that our futures are predetermined prior to our even existing? Because God knew them before we existed, which means we have no actual ability to do other than that which existed as knowledge prior to our even existing. You're right, omniscience of the future isn't the cause of the future, but it's existence is absolute proof that the cause is not our own free will.

[JimL]

This sort of absolute confidence in your own reasoning and knowledge is part of what hinders you JimL. Consider a chaotic process. We can't predict exactly which path it might take on its journey, but we know its general course and destination. for example, look at Saturn's rings. We can't predict the exact path of a shepherding moon within the system, but we do know it will stay in the path described by the gap it has left. So we can at least understand it is possible to know the general course of an object without making efforts to enforce what happens along the way. We have a capacity for choice, and we are held accountable for it. But God knows what we are and what we will be. He doesn't have to force anything for that to be true, we are still free agents within certain constraints.

People have explored ideas like this as well in Sci Fi. Where a certain destined event is inevitable even though those operating within it are free to make whatever choices they like. So there is no reason for you to take an absolutist position that this is a 'contradiction'. You don't know enough to say that.

Consider again a 4 dimensional body projected into a 3 dimensional space. Someone can tell you that in 4 dimensions this object is a 'sphere', but your capacity to measure its projection in 3 dimensions will always show it some sort of non-spherical ellipsoid. Unless you allow for the possibility there is more than you know about what it is than what you have access to in a single 3 dimensional fixed projection (e.g. you obstinately refuse to admit a 4 dimensional space is even possible), you will never admit or gain access to the reality this thing is a form of sphere.


Jim

That, what you are describing Jim, is not omniscience. If god is omniscient, then he knows it all, not just a general course. But even if god is not omniscient, and just knows the general course and destination of each and every one of us, then god, being the creator of us, would still be responsible for that general course and destination. There is really no way around the fact that if the creator knows the future of his creation, then that god is responsible for that future.

[lilpixieofterror]

TOS -- "What are Little Girls Made Of?": Android duplicates.

TOS -- "The Alternative Factor": Antimatter universe apparently closely replicating our universe.

TOS -- "Whom Gods Destroy": Fairly weak example. "Duplicate" by the illusion powers Garth learned.

TOS -- "The Enemy Within": The ol' transporter malfunction scheme. Kirk splits into his "good" and "bad" selves.

TOS -- "Mirror, Mirror": The one that spawned a legion of increasingly loathsome descendants.


That's five just from the Original Series.

I liked most of the other series better, but TOS is the one most clearly imprinted on my brain. TNG had "Tom" Ryker, owing to another transporter issue. And multiple Soong-type androids in the Data line. And I seem to recall an ep. with a duplicate Picard living in reverse-time. Oh, and I think "All Good Things" involved a need to correct a cosmic anomaly that was causing infinite disparate realities to conflate catastrophically.

DS9 had one with some kind of Miles O'Brien clone, one with two of him from different points in time sitting together hating temporal mechanics, and a few involving the Mirror Universe from TOS that made me want to kill myself.

ENT went all-in with a couple of Mirror Universe eps that tried to set the back-story for the TOS ep that started it all; they went so far as to change the opening music and footage for those eps. That was cool, but I didn't like the episodes themselves.