Trump's Christian supporters are unchristian

[JimL]

The scripture you cite failed to answer the question it asks. How will they call on him in whom they have not believed? I've heard, Ive been preached to, but I do not believe, so how do I call on him in whom I do not believe? Not to mention those who have not heard, not been preached to, and so don't believe, they, I suppose, just go straight to hell.

[Sparko]

The scripture you cite failed to answer the question it asks. How will they call on him in whom they have not believed? I've heard, Ive been preached to, but I do not believe, so how do I call on him in whom I do not believe? Not to mention those who have not heard, not been preached to, and so don't believe, they, I suppose, just go straight to hell.

It is a rhetorical question JimL.

The answer is, you CAN'T call on someone you don't believe in. So to answer your question of "can an atheist be saved" - the answer is no. Unless you are sinless. Since you go to hell for your sins, you could theoretically be saved if you never sinned.

You can only be saved and forgiven by your sins if you call on God to save you through Jesus's sacrifice on the cross. And you can't do that if you don't believe in God or in Jesus.

[oxmixmudd]

Well that just says to me that you just don't think it possible for one to honestly believe that there is no god. Is that correct?

You seem to want to make this an adversarial thing. I am trying not to do that, but at this point you are in control of how it goes from here.

Yes, I think it is possible to believe (present tense) there is not a God. I also believe that any person that seeks to know God will find Him at some point along the way. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Jim

[JimL]

It is a rhetorical question JimL.

The answer is, you CAN'T call on someone you don't believe in. So to answer your question of "can an atheist be saved" - the answer is no. Unless you are sinless. Since you go to hell for your sins, you could theoretically be saved if you never sinned.

You can only be saved and forgiven by your sins if you call on God to save you through Jesus's sacrifice on the cross. And you can't do that if you don't believe in God or in Jesus.

Thank you for admitting to the truth concerning christianity. By the way, if you actually thought about it, it's a ridiculous thing to believe.

[JimL]

You seem to want to make this an adversarial thing. I am trying not to do that, but at this point you are in control of how it goes from here.

Yes, I think it is possible to believe (present tense) there is not a God. I also believe that any person that seeks to know God will find Him at some point along the way. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Jim

But you are being evasive again, Jim. Do you believe that a good person, can by reason, come to the conclusion that there is no god? Also there have been millions of people who have lived and never heard of your god, so of course didn't believe. They all go to hell, correct? I mean according to christianity!

[Sparko]

Thank you for admitting to the truth concerning christianity.

I just gave you scripture. I don't write it.

By the way, if you actually thought about it, it's a ridiculous thing to believe.

Here is some more.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who perish; but unto us who are saved, it is the power of God.

[Sparko]

But you are being evasive again, Jim. Do you believe that a good person, can by reason, come to the conclusion that there is no god? Also there have been millions of people who have lived and never heard of your god, so of course didn't believe. They all go to hell, correct? I mean according to christianity!

Are they sinners?

Romans 3:23, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."

What is the consequence of sinning?

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death;

How can someone not pay that price? Romans 6:23 continues:
"...but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

And how does someone get that gift? They have to call on God and ask for salvation.

And if they don't know about God, or don't believe in him? Then they can't call on him.

That is why we are given the commission to spread the gospel, JimL.

You have no excuse, by the way, so instead of worrying about some theoretical person who never heard of God or Jesus, you should worry about yourself.

Your mistake in your outrage, is that you seem to think God OWES everyone salvation. He doesn't. It is a gift. He could justly just wipe us all out and start over.

[Mountain Man]

But you are being evasive again, Jim. Do you believe that a good person, can by reason, come to the conclusion that there is no god? Also there have been millions of people who have lived and never heard of your god, so of course didn't believe. They all go to hell, correct? I mean according to christianity!

Jim (oxmixmudd) already answered your question: God is a judge who is incapable of error, and nobody who truly deserves to enter heaven will be kept out.

However, you continue to beg the question that it is reasonable to conclude that there is no God. Suppose you're standing before God, and he asks, "Why didn't you believe?" Do you really think any of your lame arguments are going to serve as a sufficient answer?

[Starlight]

I think you missing the forest for the trees. The 'Jewish Customs', as you put it, are the God given Old Testament Law, which from Paul's perspective is itself perfect insofar as a system of works can be and therefore the only system of 'works' capable of producing righteousness in his theology, should the attainment of righteousness be possible at all through a system of works. So when he says righteousness can't be attained through works and those works are those same 'Jewish customs', he is, in fact, saying righteousness is impossible through ANY system of works.

So you rule out before you start the very possibility that Jesus taught a different system of works to what the Pharisees were teaching and that that is why they didn't get along and why Paul the Pharisee persecuted Jesus' followers until he had a vision of a resurrected Jesus and thus realized Jesus must be right?

[NorrinRadd]

So, if you just don't happen to believe, if you aren't a christian, then how good one is, what works one does in his life, doesn't matter, because of their non-belief, it's off to hell they go, right?

Right.

[NorrinRadd]

How do you know you're saved, you haven't died yet? If you stop doing works, would you still be saved? I think what you mean to say is that you do works because you believe you are saved. Which is another way of saying that you do works to get saved.

No.

In the 39 years since I was born again, I don't think I have ever doubted that I'm saved. I may at times -- decades ago -- have had the idea that I could "lose" my salvation. Now I understand Gal. 3 to teach that I "stay saved" the same way I "got saved" -- by faith, not works. I understand from Tit. 3 that I was saved by God's kindness and mercy, not any of my "good works," but that "good works" are to result. I understand from Eph. 2 that I was saved by grace through faith, not good works, but that good works are part of the purpose for which I was (re)created. I understand from Jas. 1-2 that "works" of kindness and mercy are demonstrations of faith (not adjuncts, as some see Jas. 2 when they ignore v. 18). I understand Gal. 5:6 to teach that "works" of "love" are the normal outcome of faith.

But again, per Gal. 3 and John 6, I understand that there are no "good works" that I need to do in order to inherit eternal life.

[oxmixmudd]

So you rule out before you start the very possibility that Jesus taught a different system of works to what the Pharisees were teaching and that that is why they didn't get along and why Paul the Pharisee persecuted Jesus' followers until he had a vision of a resurrected Jesus and thus realized Jesus must be right?

I don't 'rule it out'. The scriptures don't indicate Jesus is teaching a 'new system of works'. Jesus showed how the law was being abused. He exposed misconceptions about the law. He especially made clear that the motivation behind keeping the law is actually in the eternal more important than the act of keeping the law itself. But in the end, he taught that faith in Himself was what saved people. He forgave them theirs sins. He healed them. He told them to go and sin no more. He told people that if they believed in Him, they would have new life.



He said that His yoke was easy, and His burden was light. But He also said that not one jot or tiddle of the law would be done away. It had to be kept - by someone. And thus He fulfilled the law, so we do not have to. His life covers ours. Our failure to keep the law is not excused, our life is replace by His.

And finally, Paul didn't realize 'Jesus was right'. He realized Jesus was/is God. There is a difference.

Jim

[oxmixmudd]

But you are being evasive again, Jim. Do you believe that a good person, can by reason, come to the conclusion that there is no god? Also there have been millions of people who have lived and never heard of your god, so of course didn't believe. They all go to hell, correct? I mean according to christianity!

I don't believe it is that simple JimL. There is no salvation apart from Christ - yes. But how God handles the case of the person that has never heard the Gospel and would have received it had they heard it is difficult, and perhaps unknown. I chose not to dwell on that because there isn't anything I can do about it other than tell the people I interact with about Christ. But I can trust that God is good. That the God who would chose to go to the extreme event of becoming a man and living a human life and dying on the cross is NOT going to let anyone go to Hell that doesn't deserve to. If God sends them to Hell, then somehow that is the right thing. If He doesn't then that also is the right thing. What I do know is that we can't find eternity with God by trying to be good. Not because those good deeds are not good. But because they can't compensate for who we are without Christ.

I understand it like this. Without the work that Christ does in a person, that which is in them is like a non-converging arithmetic series. In eternity they will ultimately become truly evil. But with the change that Christ works into a person, In eternity they ultimately become like Christ, and the evil that was part of them is limited and of limited impact and can be covered by Christ's work.

The apparent injustice comes in that not everyone can know about Christ - or so it seems to us. I understand that. I struggle with that too. But in the end I believe God is just and good and merciful.

Consider: Most scientists think there is likely a multiverse, perhaps an infinitude of parallel universes where all possible events do occur. And across this inconceivably large number of universes their are perfect copies of all of us, living out all possible lives as us. If that is true, then somewhere, if there is any set of conditions that will convince you God is real, you have been convinced. And somewhere that fellow in deepest darkest africa that never heard the Gospel in our universe heard it in another one.

If that is reality, then God knows it is reality. And he is NOT then unfair to make things the way they are at all. Because somewhere in the multiverse every person who has ever lived has heard the Gospel, and not only that, has heard it under all possible conditions so that if anywhere the conditions are right for them to accept Christ, they have.

Now to be clear, I am not claiming that is true or the solution to the dilemma presented by the person who never hears the Gospel. What I'm saying is that there are things we simply don't know and can't know about the universe and the God who made it. And somewhere in those things we don't know is the answer to how things can be as they are and God also be Good, and Loving, and Merciful.


Jim

[JimL]

Are they sinners?

Romans 3:23, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."

What is the consequence of sinning?

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death;

How can someone not pay that price? Romans 6:23 continues:
"...but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

And how does someone get that gift? They have to call on God and ask for salvation.

And if they don't know about God, or don't believe in him? Then they can't call on him.

That is why we are given the commission to spread the gospel, JimL.

You have no excuse, by the way, so instead of worrying about some theoretical person who never heard of God or Jesus, you should worry about yourself.

Your mistake in your outrage, is that you seem to think God OWES everyone salvation. He doesn't. It is a gift. He could justly just wipe us all out and start over.

Exactly, that's what I'm saying is a ridiculous thing to believe about a so called good, loving, just and merciful god.

God: 'Hey, hope you all didn't live before my book came out, or before I sent my preachers out with the good news, because if you never heard of me and so don't believe in me I'm going to send you straight to hell. Why, well, just because I can, they are my rules.

I'd say that you'd have to be pretty dumb to believe such a thing, but I know you're not all that dumb, so it has to be a psychological thing, brainwashing or some such thing. And by the way, mine is not outrage at god, I don't believe in your ridiculous notion of a god, so I can't be outraged, mine is just a perplexity at how otherwise intelligent people can believe such nonsense.

[Starlight]

Consider: Most scientists think there is likely a multiverse, perhaps an infinitude of parallel universes where all possible events do occur. And across this inconceivably large number of universes their are perfect copies of all of us, living out all possible lives as us. If that is true, then somewhere, if there is any set of conditions that will convince you God is real, you have been convinced. And somewhere that fellow in deepest darkest africa that never heard the Gospel in our universe heard it in another one.

If that is reality, then God knows it is reality. And he is NOT then unfair to make things the way they are at all. Because somewhere in the multiverse every person who has ever lived has heard the Gospel, and not only that, has heard it under all possible conditions so that if anywhere the conditions are right for them to accept Christ, they have.

Well I have to say that's a new one to me. Your own idea or did you read/hear it somewhere?