Shutdown Over Border Security?

[carpedm9587]

100% of illegal immigrants have committed at least one crime, hence the term "illegal". Therefore you're wrong.

Yeah - and I'd be willing to bet that 100% of adult Americans have committed at least one crime. As with some of the illegal immigrants, they just haven't been caught. I would imagine that there is not a driver in the U.S. that has not broken a speeding law at some point. Or a jay walking law. Or run a stop sign or red light. Or cheated on their taxes just a little. Or hit the road with just a bit too much alcohol in the system. Or smoked a joint. I cannot imagine there are too many U.S. citizens that have been in 100% compliance with U.S. law for their entire life.

The illegal entry of non-nationals into the United States is a misdemeanor according to the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965. So it is at about a par with some of these other "illegal things." Tax cheating, however, is a felony. Speeding can be a felony depending on how much over the speed limit you are going.

I think the issue is "major crime" or "violent crime." And there, the data says that illegal immigrants are actually below the "average American." Yes, the argument can be made that it would be "zero" if they weren't here - but the general point is that we are not substantially at risk or in danger because there is illegal immigration. It's not an "emergency."

Should it stop? Yes - I think reasonable steps should be taken to curb illegal immigration. As with all things, it is about a cost/benefit analysis. How much money do we want to throw at ending something if it is not putting us at any substantial risk - and are there other things we can be putting our money towards. We will never stop illegal immigration 100%. The question is, when do we say, "that's good enough?"

[rogue06]

Immigrants illegally in this country commit far less crimes than do citizens like yourself. I do however understand how the right wing propagandists fire you suckers up with such cherry picked bs.

False. The left, as always, dishonestly conflates all immigrants with illegal immigrants, and while immigrants in general commit fewer crimes than those born here the same cannot be said about those who illegally entered the country. Another trick they try to pull is saying that the commit fewer crimes in general but this does not take into account what percentage of the population they represent.

If illegal aliens, say for instance, constitute 5% of the population but commit 10% of the crimes then while they may commit fewer crimes than those born here (because there are far fewer of them), they would still be over represented in the totals. This is why you end up with something like this:

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One final trick that is used is to look at incarcerations rates, but the problem here is that if released on bail or even if aware that the police are after them, illegal immigrants often recross the border and go home.

[Bill the Cat]

Yeah - and I'd be willing to bet that 100% of adult Americans have committed at least one crime. As with some of the illegal immigrants, they just haven't been caught. I would imagine that there is not a driver in the U.S. that has not broken a speeding law at some point. Or a jay walking law. Or run a stop sign or red light. Or cheated on their taxes just a little. Or hit the road with just a bit too much alcohol in the system. Or smoked a joint. I cannot imagine there are too many U.S. citizens that have been in 100% compliance with U.S. law for their entire life.

But illegals are committing at least 1 crime 100% of every day. Adult Americans aren't (Maybe 1 or 2 exceptions can be made, like illegal weapon possession).

[carpedm9587]

But illegals are committing at least 1 crime 100% of every day. Adult Americans aren't (Maybe 1 or 2 exceptions can be made, like illegal weapon possession).

So crossing into the U.S. illegally is a crime - and each new day is a new crime?

Sorry, Bill - but that's a stretch. Even the legal system doesn't agree with you. There is no difference in the legal proceedings for someone here 2 days or 2 years. There is one hearing for one situation - not a separate one for each day present.

And even by your argument, anyone who has cheated on their taxes even a little is "cheating every day." After all - there is money due the government that has not been paid, day after day after day. It's a bit of a specious argument, IMO.

[Littlejoe]

So crossing into the U.S. illegally is a crime - and each new day is a new crime?

Yep. They are illegal every day they are here.

Sorry, Bill - but that's a stretch. Even the legal system doesn't agree with you. There is no difference in the legal proceedings for someone here 2 days or 2 years. There is one hearing for one situation - not a separate one for each day present.

If you are speeding, it's one offense but your are committing the crime 100% of the time you are over the speed limit.

And even by your argument, anyone who has cheated on their taxes even a little is "cheating every day." After all - there is money due the government that has not been paid, day after day after day. It's a bit of a specious argument, IMO.

If you are caught there's penalties PLUS Interest for every day you under reported.

[Bill the Cat]

So crossing into the U.S. illegally is a crime - and each new day is a new crime?

As long as they are standing on US soil illegally, yes.

Sorry, Bill - but that's a stretch. Even the legal system doesn't agree with you. There is no difference in the legal proceedings for someone here 2 days or 2 years. There is one hearing for one situation - not a separate one for each day present.

C'mon Carp. You're smarter than that.

And even by your argument, anyone who has cheated on their taxes even a little is "cheating every day." After all - there is money due the government that has not been paid, day after day after day. It's a bit of a specious argument, IMO.

If you cheat on your taxes, and you owe the Gov't, yes. You absolutely are guilty every day until you remedy it.

[carpedm9587]

As long as they are standing on US soil illegally, yes.

C'mon Carp. You're smarter than that.

That's a personal attack - not an argument.

If you cheat on your taxes, and you owe the Gov't, yes. You absolutely are guilty every day until you remedy it.

But you have not committed a new crime each day, BTC, which is my point. You have committed one crime.

To show your position (a new crime each day) to be accurate - you would have to show that the government treats each day as a separate crime. It doesn't. It also doesn't for taxes - thought your penalty may be based on how long you have owed the money. But it is still one crime.

[Bill the Cat]

That's a personal attack - not an argument.



But you have not committed a new crime each day, BTC, which is my point. You have committed one crime.

I never said a NEW crime each day. I said "But illegals are committing at least 1 crime 100% of every day". It's the same crime, but it's every day. I can slow down, pay my back taxes, or give up an illegal gun, and I won't be committing a crime any more after that.

To show your position (a new crime each day) to be accurate - you would have to show that the government treats each day as a separate crime. It doesn't. It also doesn't for taxes - thought your penalty may be based on how long you have owed the money. But it is still one crime.

Considering I never said it was a NEW crime every day...

[carpedm9587]

I never said a NEW crime each day. I said "But illegals are committing at least 1 crime 100% of every day". It's the same crime, but it's every day. I can slow down, pay my back taxes, or give up an illegal gun, and I won't be committing a crime any more after that.

Considering I never said it was a NEW crime every day...

The crime was committed when they crossed over. It will continue to be a crime that they crossed over, even if they go back. I don't see that you're saying much of anything here. The same is true of speeding. The same is true of paying taxes. You are somehow trying to make this misdemeanor seem more egregious than it is.

I don't share that sentiment.

[Bill the Cat]

The crime was committed when they crossed over.

That's one crime (Title 8, Section 1325 of the U.S. Code)

It will continue to be a crime that they crossed over, even if they go back.

But BEING here is a separate crime (Immigration and Nationality Act Section 237 (a)(1)(B)), so that's 2 if they get caught here illegally.

I don't see that you're saying much of anything here. The same is true of speeding. The same is true of paying taxes. You are somehow trying to make this misdemeanor seem more egregious than it is.

I don't share that sentiment.

Not surprising. But the facts remain that any person here illegally is committing one, and has committed possibly 2 crimes.

[Sparko]

Crossing into a country illegally is a bit more severe than jaywalking.

[carpedm9587]

That's one crime (Title 8, Section 1325 of the U.S. Code)

But BEING here is a separate crime (Immigration and Nationality Act Section 237 (a)(1)(B)), so that's 2 if they get caught here illegally.

Not surprising. But the facts remain that any person here illegally is committing one, and has committed possibly 2 crimes.

So the illegal immigrant has committed two misdemeanors. Given that the average adult citizen is going to speed and cheat on their taxes and jaywalk (and all of the other misdemeanors we commit on a daily basis) many many times, I find the distinction innocuous. Too much is made of it.

The focus should be on major/violent crimes. Not the petty day to day things, IMO.

And I just don't break out in a rash at illegal immigration. Do we need to make some adjustments? Sure. Should we try to reduce it? Absolutely. But we will never reduce it to zero, we probably disagree on HOW we should reduce it, and I suspect we disagree that there will come a point where the cost/benefit analysis will cause me to say "that's good enough," and that point will not be at zero.

[carpedm9587]

Crossing into a country illegally is a bit more severe than jaywalking.

It's just a longer trip

However legally, I believe both are considered misdemeanors. So there may be some differences in consequences, but they appear to be fairly close to one another legally. Not the same, of course, but illegal immigration is more like jaywalking than it is like killing someone or armed robbery or dealing drugs.

[Sparko]

So the illegal immigrant has committed two misdemeanors. Given that the average adult citizen is going to speed and cheat on their taxes and jaywalk (and all of the other misdemeanors we commit on a daily basis) many many times, I find the distinction innocuous. Too much is made of it.

The focus should be on major/violent crimes. Not the petty day to day things, IMO.

And I just don't break out in a rash at illegal immigration. Do we need to make some adjustments? Sure. Should we try to reduce it? Absolutely. But we will never reduce it to zero, we probably disagree on HOW we should reduce it, and I suspect we disagree that there will come a point where the cost/benefit analysis will cause me to say "that's good enough," and that point will not be at zero.

Simple speeding and Jaywalking are not even misdemeanors carp. They are infractions.

[carpedm9587]

Simple speeding and Jaywalking are not even misdemeanors carp. They are infractions.

So speeding - maybe. It's an infraction at lower speeds, a misdemeanor at higher speeds, and it can even be a felony. It depends on the circumstance.

Jaywalking is indeed an infraction - so thanks for the correction. I still think illegal immigration is more like jaywalking than it is like murder - but it is not as close as I originally thought.