Botham Shem Jean

[Cow Poke]

I was surprised at that as well but, meh...it's a little bit of semantics isn't it CP?

Yes, you're correct but...that training used to be fire 2 shots and see if they stop...NOW it says, you stop shooting when the subject is down and not moving...which is either dead or dying.

Both sides will do "witness prep" - and I'm surprised she wasn't "prepped" to be more distinctive... "I saw a threat, and my reaction was to stop the threat..."

[Leonhard]

I'm actually surprised that, when asked if she intended to kill Jean, she testified "yes I did".

The training is to STOP the subject, not to kill them.

Can you mention a single case of a cop who got convincted of manslaughter despite using the "I was afraid for my life" defense? That appears to be a universal get-out-of-jail free card that never fails. In this case it can even apply when the subject is inside his own home, watching television, and getting out of the chair calmly.

[Cow Poke]

Regardless of how the trial is resolved, she isn't getting off scot free. She lost her job and her reputation, and had her face in the international media as a killer in the court of public opinion.

While true, I'd still be surprised if she doesn't get manslaughter in some form.

[Leonhard]

Both sides will do "witness prep" - and I'm surprised she wasn't "prepped" to be more distinctive... "I saw a threat, and my reaction was to stop the threat..."

Well she certainly prepped her witness. He's in a grave now. And her police buddies gave her a three day head start, and was sure to leak evidence about drugs in his apartment to the press.

[Cow Poke]

Can you mention a single case of a cop who got convincted of manslaughter despite using the "I was afraid for my life" defense? That appears to be a universal get-out-of-jail free card that never fails. In this case it can even apply when the subject is inside his own home, watching television, and getting out of the chair calmly.

That took 2 seconds.

[Leonhard]

That took 2 seconds.

That's fair, I'll grant that.

[Cow Poke]

Well she certainly prepped her witness. He's in a grave now. And her police buddies gave her a three day head start, and was sure to leak evidence about drugs in his apartment to the press.

The actual details and facts were aired in court over the past 6-7 days, Leon, subject to cross-examination - the jury will be deciding the case.

[Leonhard]

The actual details and facts were aired in court over the past 6-7 days, Leon, subject to cross-examination - the jury will be deciding the case.

Whatever evidence wasn't scrupped clean by the police. Remember that guy who was shot while running away from a cop? They planted a tazer in that guys hands, and faked further records at the police station. The only reason we know about that case, was due to a citizen recording the whole thing on a cellphone camera.

[Leonhard]

In the US a police officer shot a guy crawling along the ground begging for his life. No punishment.

If in the US a police officer can also walk straight into another persons apartment, and cry 'accidental shooting' and walk away clean as a whistle, I don't think the trust in the US police will ever fully recover.

[Cow Poke]

In the US a police officer shot a guy crawling along the ground begging for his life. No punishment.

If that's true, it's obviously horrible.

If in the US a police officer can also walk straight into another persons apartment, and cry 'accidental shooting' and walk away clean as a whistle, I don't think the trust in the US police will ever fully recover.

Let's see what the jury decides, OK?

[KingsGambit]

In the US a police officer shot a guy crawling along the ground begging for his life. No punishment.

If in the US a police officer can also walk straight into another persons apartment, and cry 'accidental shooting' and walk away clean as a whistle, I don't think the trust in the US police will ever fully recover.

The Daniel Shaver case was an obvious travesty of justice (and it bothered me to see so many people defend the police there), but each case needs to be considered separately. This case is not quite as cut and dry.

But I am absolutely with you on how the mistrust of police is a crisis. I was talking to some black co-workers and their thought was that you only call the police if there is a murder in progress, and even then, you go out in public until you find a pay phone. Do I blame them for feeling that way? No.

[KingsGambit]

If that's true, it's obviously horrible.

He's talking about the Daniel Shaver case. I remember you were active in that discussion.

[Leonhard]

The Daniel Shaver case was an obvious travesty of justice (and it bothered me to see so many people defend the police there), but each case needs to be considered separately. This case is not quite as cut and dry.

But I am absolutely with you on how the mistrust of police is a crisis. I was talking to some black co-workers and their thought was that you only call the police if there is a murder in progress, and even then, you go out in public until you find a pay phone. Do I blame them for feeling that way? No.

And you have to be certain not to make quick arm movements, or hold a cellphone. They shoot you for that as well. You must make slow motions... but not too slow, such as this case shows, as she argues that he was too slow to respond, and so she shot him in his heart.

You must cooporate with the police, so if he asks you if you have a gun you tell him, but be careful not to show him where the gun is or he will shoot you like in the Castille case.

There's a very specific dance to go through that avoids you getting shot, and it seems to get narrower with each of these legal cases.

[Cow Poke]

He's talking about the Daniel Shaver case. I remember you were active in that discussion.

It slipped my mind. But I clearly condemned that action.

I'm not going to re-read all 120+ posts, so this may have been said before, but what really upsets me about this is how preventable it was.

There were SIX officers in the hallway, and they allowed this incident to be dragged out for nearly FIVE minutes, during which time a wide range of complicated and conflicting commands were yelled at a man who was intoxicated, yet trying to be compliant at every step. You can tell he was scared to death.

I still train with a swat team, my son-in-law is their commander. The job of the swat team (and even any officers initially responding) is to take control of the situation and bring order out of chaos. That didn't happen here.

I've heard it argued that the officers were concerned somebody else might be down the hall, but there were SIX OFFICERS lined up, and plenty of opportunity for cover while one or two of them went and cuffed the suspect. (One of the officers may have been removed from action because of the subdued woman being taken in custody, but that still leaves FIVE officers, guns drawn, at the ready)

Rather than have the man lay face down, and somebody approach and cuff him, they order him to crawl forward. At several points, both suspects tried to ask questions for clarification, and were shouted to "shut up - this is not a conversation". One of the things that is hammered into our officers is "talk to them like they're people". These people were not talked to like people. It was more like they were enemy combatants on a battlefield.

When the guy is told to crawl forward, you'll notice that this means he approaches the woman's purse, which she had dropped about 4 feet in front of him. No officer in his right mind would order somebody to crawl toward something like that, where there could conceivably be a weapon or anything.

From a police incident report written by a Mesa Police Officer watching the video...



One thing that I can't seem to get clarification in is that the officer writing the incident report refers to "16 minutes and 40 seconds into the recording" as the time just before the fatal shooting. I have to assume that we're watching 5 of the final minutes of that 16 minutes, which probably began as the officers arrived on the scene and were setting up. I really don't know.

The incident report continues...



Again, "in the moment" (and trying not to "Monday morning quarterback") it's entirely possible that the officer thought Shaver was reaching for a gun, but in my opinion, highly unlikely.

The fact is that only ONE of the five (or six) officers fired. In a situation where 5 or 6 officers believe there is a credible, immediate and deadly threat, there is usually a hail of gunfire from multiple officers, as each is reacting to what he sees at the time, and there's no coordination "OK, you guys hold your fire, I'll take the shot", etc. It's usually just a hail of gunfire. But only one officer fired.

Again, I'm about as pro-police as they come, still serving as police chaplain and closely involved with two police departments, city and county, along with a multi-jurisdictional task force. I've been keeping up with after action reports, and this situation has actually been used in a couple of training episodes I've attended.

It is pretty much described as "a really good example of a really bad police action".

[KingsGambit]

I can understand Leon being upset about that particular issue because a certain disreputable member of this forum with a history of pretending to be Russian was personally trolling him on that thread