Originally posted by Cow Poke
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Are your kids confrontational? They might be terrorists
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Originally posted by Carrikature View PostAt least attempt to get the quote complete:
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostOnce the kids realize there is no wifi or cellphone service in Taliban country, they will give up this foolish idea."Kahahaha! Let's get lunatic!"-Add LP
"And the Devil did grin, for his darling sin is pride that apes humility"-Samuel Taylor Coleridge
Oh ye of little fiber. Do you not know what I've done for you? You will obey. ~Cerealman for Prez.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostOnce the kids realize there is no wifi or cellphone service in Taliban country, they will give up this foolish idea.
10 seconds tops."Kahahaha! Let's get lunatic!"-Add LP
"And the Devil did grin, for his darling sin is pride that apes humility"-Samuel Taylor Coleridge
Oh ye of little fiber. Do you not know what I've done for you? You will obey. ~Cerealman for Prez.
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Originally posted by seanD View PostI don't see from what she said even here where it was taken out of context. It seems like you're grasping at straws just to defend what she said, which is weird."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
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Originally posted by seanD View PostI don't see from what she said even here where it was taken out of context. It seems like you're grasping at straws just to defend what she said, which is weird.
In the first place, the difference between violent extremism and terrorism is subtle but real. Hence, 'your children might be a terrorist' is not an accurate representation. Yes, terrorism falls under the umbrella of violent extremism, but they are not identical. Terrorist cells exist, but 'violent extremism' can also entail racial and other motivations. From the same transcript I linked before:
These are the events her speech focuses on, and it is these kinds of events for which they have discovered that people familiar with the perpetrators noticed warning signs, signs that were either ignored or misunderstood. That's the context that is missing. The speech was not about terrorism, it was about those possessing radical beliefs to the point of acting violently upon them.
In that context, we can review the portion the article quoted and for which I provided a broader cite. Yes, teenagers are confrontational, but a noticeable trend towards violent solutions is something parents should watch for anyway. Yes, people can and do argue or disagree with their religious leaders, but if those disagreements trend towards "kill the infidel", there is cause for concern. Yes, teachers might hear a student expressing an interest in traveling to a conflict zone overseas, but the reason for that desire is what is really the concern. If it's 'learn about the causes firsthand', that's one thing. If it's 'learn how/why a group decided to violently stand up for themselves', that's quite another. Interest in watching violent material is more of the same. In all of these cases, the issue is as much or more about what is happening to drive these behaviors rather than the behaviors themselves.
In context, we can see that her comments are not in anyway a suggestion that your kids are terrorists, but that recognizing certain behaviors and what they could imply is an important part of prevention. Lisa Monaco did not extend her speech to include things like Aurora or Newtown, but the people responsible for such acts similarly portray certain behaviors that could have been recognized and addressed prior to the fact. This isn't even news.I'm not here anymore.
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The 'warning signs' are such incredibly poor indicators that they really are more harmful than useful. A good indicator must be distinguishable from the norm - and only one of the four is. It must also be strongly correlated - I'm not sure that the fourth is, and in fact, doubt it seriously. Poor indicators result in a lot of unnecessary false alarms which waste resources and run the risk of inoculating people against responding (we see this when too many tornado warnings fail to result in storms, et al).
The title merely restates Monaco's own indicator - and the problem is far more with the inability of those indicators to distinguish themselves than with Sean D's title choice."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostThe 'warning signs' are such incredibly poor indicators that they really are more harmful than useful. A good indicator must be distinguishable from the norm - and only one of the four is. It must also be strongly correlated - I'm not sure that the fourth is, and in fact, doubt it seriously. Poor indicators result in a lot of unnecessary false alarms which waste resources and run the risk of inoculating people against responding (we see this when too many tornado warnings fail to result in storms, et al).
The title merely restates Monaco's own indicator - and the problem is far more with the inability of those indicators to distinguish themselves than with Sean D's title choice.
For what it's worth, my posts here have certainly critiqued seanD's presentation to some degree, but that is more peripheral than anything intended specifically against him. The article itself portrays pretty much the same thing as what he has presented. I realize that my initial post in this thread was unclear as to its direction. SeanD, nothing I've said in this thread has been intended as an attack against you.I'm not here anymore.
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Originally posted by Carrikature View PostWere the speech meant to be anything more than informative about the existence of collaboration and the need to pay attention, I'd be willing to critique her indicators. Barring that, I'm unwilling to believe she considers these indicators sufficient or even expressed in sufficient detail based on this speech alone. The point of the speech is part of the context that was missing, too. We otherwise agree.
For what it's worth, my posts here have certainly critiqued seanD's presentation to some degree, but that is more peripheral than anything intended specifically against him. The article itself portrays pretty much the same thing as what he has presented. I realize that my initial post in this thread was unclear as to its direction. SeanD, nothing I've said in this thread has been intended as an attack against you.
2) Fair enough."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by Teallaura View Post1) Since speeches are meant to inform, I think the indicators are very much fair game, whether or not she has others she didn't present or believes these insufficient (in which case why present them at all).I'm not here anymore.
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Originally posted by Epoetker View PostIs your wife turning into a confrontational hag? She might be a terrorist. It does tend to make you ugly:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]490[/ATTACH]
Up-and coming Chechen revolutionaries, sporting sweet 80s hairstyles.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]491[/ATTACH]
Father still has fashion sense, bomb momma full of grimace lines."As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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Originally posted by Carrikature View PostThe thread title, and the article linked, both make it seem that Lisa Monaco believes aberrant behavior is akin to terrorism. Your OP takes it beyond just that by insinuating her belief is that we should all be spying on each other. It's somewhat understandable, but it's ultimately a misunderstanding of her claim due in part (I think) because the quotes were taken out of context.
In the first place, the difference between violent extremism and terrorism is subtle but real. Hence, 'your children might be a terrorist' is not an accurate representation. Yes, terrorism falls under the umbrella of violent extremism, but they are not identical. Terrorist cells exist, but 'violent extremism' can also entail racial and other motivations. From the same transcript I linked before:
These are the events her speech focuses on, and it is these kinds of events for which they have discovered that people familiar with the perpetrators noticed warning signs, signs that were either ignored or misunderstood. That's the context that is missing. The speech was not about terrorism, it was about those possessing radical beliefs to the point of acting violently upon them.
In that context, we can review the portion the article quoted and for which I provided a broader cite. Yes, teenagers are confrontational, but a noticeable trend towards violent solutions is something parents should watch for anyway. Yes, people can and do argue or disagree with their religious leaders, but if those disagreements trend towards "kill the infidel", there is cause for concern. Yes, teachers might hear a student expressing an interest in traveling to a conflict zone overseas, but the reason for that desire is what is really the concern. If it's 'learn about the causes firsthand', that's one thing. If it's 'learn how/why a group decided to violently stand up for themselves', that's quite another. Interest in watching violent material is more of the same. In all of these cases, the issue is as much or more about what is happening to drive these behaviors rather than the behaviors themselves.
In context, we can see that her comments are not in anyway a suggestion that your kids are terrorists, but that recognizing certain behaviors and what they could imply is an important part of prevention. Lisa Monaco did not extend her speech to include things like Aurora or Newtown, but the people responsible for such acts similarly portray certain behaviors that could have been recognized and addressed prior to the fact. This isn't even news.
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Originally posted by Carrikature View PostSure, speeches are meant to inform. My point was that the speech wasn't about the indicators except in passing. As for the indicators themselves, I certainly wish she would have bothered to present them more clearly. It took very little effort on my part to understand what was intended, but it's so vague as to be virtually meaningless to someone who doesn't already know what those indicators are. I'm not giving her (or her speech writers) any credit for having done it well. My real complaint is with the author of the article who, while liberally sprinkling quotes, apparently failed to understand or portray the thrust of the speech, choosing instead to focus on a very minor portion."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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