Trump's dictator envy

[JimL]

Unlike Hitler, Trump made it crystal clear what sort of changes he wants to enact. There was no nebulous "hope and change" mantra minus any details.

So you knew Trump would undermine democratic norms, betray our allies and align himself with the dictators of the world and you voted for him anyway?

[lilpixieofterror]

Fascism comes in increments OBP. If you want a current example, look at Trumps autocratic buddy in Turkey. Erdogan was democratically elected just like Trump, he now rules the country with an iron fist.

[One Bad Pig]

Fascism comes in increments OBP. If you want a current example, look at Trumps autocratic buddy in Turkey. Erdogan was democratically elected just like Trump, he now rules the country with an iron fist.

Easily the closest the US has come to autocracy was WWI under Woodrow Wilson, when industry was under government control and the US had an actual propaganda department.

It's also rather more difficult to set up an autocracy here without an outright revolution. The president can only lawfully be in office for 10 years, and changing that requires a constitutional amendment (which takes a 2/3 vote in BOTH houses of Congress, AND must be ratified by 3/4 of the states). I don't think the Democrats are capable of being so incompetent that this somehow might come about. You can pontificate about increments all you want, but that's an extremely difficult bar to cross. Somehow, I don't think Erdogan had that issue.

[lilpixieofterror]

So you knew Trump would undermine democratic norms, betray our allies and align himself with the dictators of the world and you voted for him anyway?

Are you talking about Obama again?

[One Bad Pig]

Please stop pretending there is some big difference.

He's not pretending, Jim.

[rogue06]

He's not pretending, Jim.

Just look at what those who established our Republic had to say about democracies.

[JimL]

Easily the closest the US has come to autocracy was WWI under Woodrow Wilson, when industry was under government control and the US had an actual propaganda department.

It's also rather more difficult to set up an autocracy here without an outright revolution. The president can only lawfully be in office for 10 years, and changing that requires a constitutional amendment (which takes a 2/3 vote in BOTH houses of Congress, AND must be ratified by 3/4 of the states). I don't think the Democrats are capable of being so incompetent that this somehow might come about. You can pontificate about increments all you want, but that's an extremely difficult bar to cross. Somehow, I don't think Erdogan had that issue.

Maybe you should start now.

[Starlight]

Just look at what those who established our Republic had to say about democracies.

They made their best judgments based on the information they had at the time, which wasn't much regarding democracies.

Since then, we have had hundreds of years worth of data from scores of countries regarding how democracies do and don't work, and we can pretty definitively say that the US Founding Fathers were absolutely wrong when they made negative comments about democracies.

[Terraceth]

To be fair more and more schools erroneously teach that we are a democracy rather than a democratic republic.

It's not erroneous. According to the modern definition of democracy, the US qualifies. Let's pull up some dictionaries:

Merriam-Webster: "a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections"

Cambridge Dictionary: "the belief in freedom and equality between people, or a system of government based on this belief, in which power is either held by elected representatives or directly by the people themselves"

Oxford Dictionary: "A system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives."

Dictionary.com: "government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system."

That's all the major dictionaries I can think of offhand, and according to every single one, the US is a democracy.

Maybe several centuries ago the definition of democracy was more restrictive and in contrast to that of republic, but that's not the case anymore. This odd behavior of yours goes beyond pedantry.

As noted earlier, republics are not in contrast to democracy; a republic is a type of democracy.

They made their best judgments based on the information they had at the time, which wasn't much regarding democracies.

Since then, we have had hundreds of years worth of data from scores of countries regarding how democracies do and don't work, and we can pretty definitively say that the US Founding Fathers were absolutely wrong when they made negative comments about democracies.

Their statements were contrasting "direct democracy" with a system of elected representatives (republic), with them commenting the latter is much better than the former. Given that as far as I know every democracy in the world nowadays is a republic, such statements were shown to actually be completely correct.

[JimL]

He's not pretending, Jim.

We are a representative democracy and you can call it a republic if you want. They're the same thing. I understand some of you have a problem understanding that, or admitting to it for some reason, but thems the facts.

[Terraceth]

Here's some more dictionaries:

American Heritage Dictionary: "Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives."

Chambers Dictionary: "a form of government in which the people govern themselves or elect representatives to govern them"

Collins English Dictionary: "government in which the people hold the ruling power either directly or through elected representatives; rule by the ruled" (American definition) or "government by the people or their elected representatives" (British definition)

Again, these are all descriptive of the American government system of elected representatives.

But there's perhaps a more pertinent question I have: What in the world does this have to do with anything? Here's the JimL post that started this whole pointless hubbub:

Well, apparently you're not aware of it, but we still live in a democracy at the moment OBP. Does that give you a hint as to how knowledge stops an autocrat?

Suppose he said "republic" rather than "democracy." Does that change anything about his argument? No, it doesn't. This entire tangent about whether the US is a democracy or a republic (again, it's both) is utterly ridiculous.

And for the record, I say this as someone who thinks his fears of Trump being or becoming some kind of dictator to be downright ridiculous. But attack those claims, don't go off on an utterly irrelevant (and as I have demonstrated, not even correct) tangent about how the US is a republic and not a democracy.

[Tassman]

Unlike Hitler, Trump made it crystal clear what sort of changes he wants to enact. There was no nebulous "hope and change" mantra minus any details.

[myth]

Trump's adoration for dictators is something that concerns me because he's either too stupid to realize that's not cool, or too tone deaf to realize he shouldn't voice such opinions, or both. He needs to spend less time on Twitter and more time listening to experts. The man has an inflated opinion of his own intellect.

[JimL]

Trump's adoration for dictators is something that concerns me because he's either too stupid to realize that's not cool, or too tone deaf to realize he shouldn't voice such opinions, or both. He needs to spend less time on Twitter and more time listening to experts. The man has an inflated opinion of his own intellect.

You left out one option, maybe he adores dictators because at heart he is one himself and he understands that his base supporters, you know the deplorables, actually have a soft spot for autocrats.

[myth]

I'm a naturally suspicious person, but honestly I don't think Trump actually wants to be a dictator. I do think he admires the level of control dictators have and in particular he seeks the adoration and lip service paid to dictators. Years ago Trump was a frequent source of information for a gossip columnist in NYC. His only condition? The magazine had to refer to him as a billionaire in every article (and I actually don't think he was a billionaire at that time). He's a narcissist.