Originally posted by Sparko
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Separating immigrant families and imprisoning children
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostYou're not making a whole lot of sense here. Those who are able to protest in our streets are clearly not "standing on the street corner waiting for some farmer to pick them up for a day of picking crops for pennies," "liv[ing] on the street or in shacks," "don't know the language," and "can't get a legitimate job." People often come here illegally for work and send money home to help out others. You're castigating Charles for exaggeration, then turning around and doing it yourself.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostIt's not easy being an immigrant in Mexico:
In Mexico, police have been adapting to a different reality, resulting from a 2008 rewrite of its immigration law. "[It] decriminalized migration, so in theory it's no longer a crime to be an illegal immigrant in Mexico," says Jaime Arredondo Sanchez Lira, a former government official and currently resident fellow, at the Center for US-Mexican Studies at the University of California, San Diego.
"That was a consequences of violence ... tied to human trafficking," Arredondo says. By making illegal immigration punishable only by a civil fine, the hope was that migrants moving through Mexico would be less vulnerable to abuse and extortion. Unfortunately, Arredondo says migrants are still often targeted by corrupt police and military.
"Many of the police forces are associated with drug dealers or smugglers, and in many cases they will hand you over [to smugglers] or extort money, or in some sad cases, kill you if you refuse to take part in their activities."
Officially, local police in Mexico aren't supposed to go around asking people about their immigration status, says Alejandro Lares, former chief of municipal police in Tijuana. But things change once they have probable cause of an immigration violation, or the person commits another crime.
"We are able to detain them, and once they're detained, we can actually call Mexican immigration, and they can find out if they're legal or illegal in our country," Lares says.
The American "sanctuary city" concept is largely foreign to Mexico; Lares says local jurisdictions don't prohibit their police from working with national immigration officials.
"I don't think [police] would ever consider not to voluntarily cooperate with an immigration authority," he says, "if things are being done by the book."
Note that this is from NPR, not exactly a conservative right-wing source.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostMexico is a free country.
And if the country is not free, that is what revolutions are for. Ask the French.
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Originally posted by Charles View PostWell, in general speaking terms, the quote I used is often used in that way to stress a particular point. I have no problem admitting that the historical accurancy is debatable since it makes no difference to the point. In fact I already did that. How that allows you to genrally conclude I don't worry much about facts is another question.
If one follows your logic then based on your following statement you don't care much about facts:
We all know the above is not correct since Manafort was with Trump for 144 days. What would you like us to conclude? That you made an error or that you don't care about facts in general?
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostWhile Mexico is not a paradise if your motive is to escape persecution in your homeland you still have pretty much achieved it. If your motive is something else entirely then you keep dragging your kids along for another 2000 miles.
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Originally posted by Charles View PostI have to acknowledge your point about asking the French. :-) However, I think OBP made a very good case of people being in very different situations and living under different conditions with different options or lack of options. To be honest I had more of a protest gene and a greater will to accept risk when I was younger and I would perhaps (I don't know since I have never been in the situation) have been a greater protester. As of now I feel quite certain my greatest priority and I would also say my greatest responsibility in my current situation would be to make sure my children were safe. I don't blame people for not risking their lives protesting when that includes the risk that their small children will be left alone and probably die or live very misserable lives. And instead of asking the French (and I do see your point) we could also ask those from Syria, or could we? How many of them are still alive and have a voice that we can hear?
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostWhile Mexico is not a paradise if your motive is to escape persecution in your homeland you still have pretty much achieved it. If your motive is something else entirely then you keep dragging your kids along for another 2000 miles.
That was a consequences of violence ... tied to human trafficking," Arredondo says. By making illegal immigration punishable only by a civil fine, the hope was that migrants moving through Mexico would be less vulnerable to abuse and extortion. Unfortunately, Arredondo says migrants are still often targeted by corrupt police and military.
...
"Many of the police forces are associated with drug dealers or smugglers, and in many cases they will hand you over [to smugglers] or extort money, or in some sad cases, kill you if you refuse to take part in their activities."
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostSo they don't protest because they are worried about their children? Yet they are OK with dragging those kids 2000 miles across a foreign country filled with danger hoping they don't die along the way?
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostI'm not the one who kept claiming something after being shown to be wrong cakeboy.Last edited by Charles; 06-18-2018, 04:09 PM.
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Amnesty International has some very interesting points on the current situation:
Amnesty International recently interviewed 17 asylum-seeking parents who were forcibly separated from their children, and all but three of them had entered the USA legally to request asylum.
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Children held in cages
In many of our discussions about Trump's immigration policy it has been claimed that the material conditions for the children are good and that they are taken good care of. Now, it seems, those claims can no longer be witheld. The Telegraph has described the actual conditions for some children in a heartbreaking article. Here are some of the most important parts:
Inside an old warehouse in South Texas, hundreds of children wait in a series of cages created by metal fencing. One cage had 20 children inside.But one boy nearby wasn't playing with the rest. According to Brane, he was quiet, clutching a piece of paper that was a photocopy of his mother's ID card.
"The government is literally taking kids away from their parents and leaving them in inappropriate conditions," Brane said. "If a parent left a child in a cage with no supervision with other five-year-olds, they'd be held accountable."Staff members tried to console the child, who looked to be about two years old, Kraft said. She had been taken from her mother the night before and brought to the shelter.
The staff gave her books and toys - but they weren't allowed to pick her up, to hold her or hug her to try to calm her. As a rule, staff aren't allowed to touch the children there, she said.
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostAs no doubt most posters here are aware by now, this Republican administration has chosen to split up the families of asylum seekers, separating children from their parents. This is part of a deliberate policy by Jeff Sessions of attempting to terrorize immigrants in order to deter future immigration.
The UN has condemned this as a violation of international law. A US judged has declared it a clear constitutional violation. Since the US government has a poor record in terms of properly looking after immigrant children it imprisons, a US Senator attempted to visit the detention facility to check conditions there, and rather than let him in, staff called the police to kick him out.
In other threads I have pointed out to Cow Poke that the Republican party acts pretty consistently against families in their policies. This is simply the latest example, albeit a particularly egregious one.
Personally, I think the FBI should break down Jeff Sessions' door, arrest him, throw him into jail, indict him with enough charges that he serves the rest of his life in prison. The same goes down the chain of command for those who choose to follow such horrific orders from those above them. This is an international outrage that will make the history books, akin to the torture program of the last criminal Republican administration, and there should be immediate consequences for those involved.
Please vote in the poll with your views!
Putting forward common sense, generous, immigration quotas (especially now that our native population has dropped below the replacement rate for population) is one part of that. But you also need the stick. There are fewer things stronger than the maternal/paternal bond. I have to wonder if the knowledge that being caught entering illegally would result in separation from your own children for some period of time might not be a good deterrent, at least for families entering. Once the word gets out, one would think people would look elsewhere? Eventually, wouldn't family entry drop to very little as a result?
Of course, it has to be done so the children are well cared for. Since folks don't trust government to pave a highway or run a social program, one has to wonder how we can possibly trust them to take care of actual, living children in their charge?
Bottom line, I don't know what to think, yet. It sounds horrendous. It might be necessary. It's rife with potentials for disaster.
Dunno...The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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But, but, what about when the Obama administration did something bad like this one time!?!"I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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