Separating immigrant families and imprisoning children

[carpedm9587]

Maybe because this isn't happening "on the border". It's in counties inside the USA, often on ranchers' land where we have leases, and you DO realize that "the border" in some places is only a knee-deep muddy stream, yes?

CP, I've hiked and ridden about 40 miles of the border, mostly from a ranch (now closed) called Rancho de la Osa (IIRC). I've also spent time in and around El Paso, Yuma, San Diego, and Brownsville, which gives me a reasonable sampling of the city-fare. Yes, I know that the border is a combination of MANY circumstances. It passes through cities, desert, is part river, part muddy stream, part open fields, and pretty much everything in between. It's not clear what I said that caused you to think I thought otherwise.

I think it's wherever the coyotes think Border agents are not watching. And some of this, because it's on ranchers' property, is residential, but our gas compression equipment would be considered commercial, obviously. I don't think the Sheriffs really make a distinction.

It certainly could detain you, unless one of the men wants to take full responsibility.

Here's the deal - I no longer work for that company as an employee, but I still do consulting for them in a number of areas. One of them is security, and I've had to tell the guys that work these areas...

A) You know that company policy is very strict about firearms in company vehicles, and you could get terminated!
2) OFF the record - you're stupid if you don't have some type of serious protection. (These alarms often go off at 2 - 5 AM when it's dark - and out in the country, it's DARK when it's dark!)
C) Do NOT respond to a night alarm alone - WAIT for another employee to stand by while you check the unit.

I work directly with the security team from Anadarko, and they would tell you the same thing if they thought they could trust you.

Trust me? Really? Anyone would buy a used car from THIS face...

[Littlejoe]

Here I have to admit to some dubiousness. First of all, a significant number of these reports, when you dig into them, count the illegal entry as a crime, immediately inflating the numbers. The fact that the crime number is significantly higher than the number of people investigated makes me suspect this is the case here. I'd have to see the data to know.

Be that as it may, any illegal immigration is unacceptable, IMO. It is also unacceptable in the views of every single Democrat I know. Indeed, it is unacceptable in the eyes of any American I know (that I have had this conversation with). The issue at hand is a) how do we best prevent it, and b) what do we do about the 11M immigrants currently here.

The fact is we will never prevent it 100%. But we can greatly reduce it with the right strategy and technology. For various reasons I've discussed before, the "wall" is not going to cut it. That doesn't mean we shouldn't have walls in places where the problems are greatest, but the wall alone will not solve the problem. Segments of wall/fence coupled with detection technology, adequate staffing for the border patrol, and consistent policy are required. We should put a stake in the ground and adopt a "zero tolerance" for illegal immigration going forward.

As for the existing 11M, I have stated my position before. If they have been convicted of a significant crime (i.e., anything that would earn them jail time), they should be deported - no questions asked. If they have not, then I believe they should be permitted an arduous path to citizenship. It should include elements NOT required for someone entering legally (e.g., extended community service, etc.). I believe this because the fault that they are here is shared. They carry part of it for coming to begin with. We carry part of it for having a screwed up immigration system that permitted the situation for as long as it did, allowing these people to establish roots, build community ties, and even raise families that now know no other country than the U.S. I believe that is the humanitarian approach. I also believe it is economically sound. These people represent an important employment base, many have started businesses that employ others, and most are solid contributors to our country.

Well, I understand your dubiousness, but I think you didn't really look at that link very closely, much less "dug into it. I say that because, from the link which is an Official Texas Department of Public Safety website BTW, (so not an opinion or even a news article) it says that the crimes committed were "only crimes committed in Texas for State Offenses" and did "not" included Federal Crimes. Illegal entry would qualify as a Federal crime not a State offense...would it not?

These figures do not attempt to allege that foreign nationals in the country illegally commit more crimes than other groups. It simply identifies thousands of crimes that should not have occurred and thousands of victims that should not have been victimized because the perpetrator should not be here. It is also important to note that these figures represent the minimum number of crimes associated with criminal illegal aliens:

• These figures only count arrests in Texas for state offenses. These individuals may have criminal records in other states.
• These figures only represent offenses and convictions that are associated with arrest events that occurred between June 1, 2011 and July 31, 2018.
• The criminal activity for individuals identified as illegal while in prison is under represented for this time period because they may have been incarcerated during the time frame used in this report.
• These figures do not count federal criminal charges.

I think they should be incarcerated if found guilty of the crimes, THEN deported once their sentence is served.

[Cow Poke]

CP, I've hiked and ridden about 40 miles of the border, mostly from a ranch (now closed) called Rancho de la Osa (IIRC). I've also spent time in and around El Paso, Yuma, San Diego, and Brownsville, which gives me a reasonable sampling of the city-fare. Yes, I know that the border is a combination of MANY circumstances. It passes through cities, desert, is part river, part muddy stream, part open fields, and pretty much everything in between. It's not clear what I said that caused you to think I thought otherwise.

How long ago?

[Tassman]

It is a mess. There is responsibility on both sides. The underlying problem is that we have no comprehensive immigration policy. It would take BOTH SIDES to fix that.

The "underlying problem" of not having a comprehensive immigration policy is a separate issue. The current mess is solely on Trump and his stated plan to separate children from their parents as a deterrent to future asylum seekers i.e. being deliberately cruel to children in order to achieve his ends. And it backfired big-time on all sides.

So, pitch a little hissy.

I hate what's happening on the border. It IS Trump's ballgame now. BOTH sides need to work together to fix the problem, but you would simply rather hyperventilate and point fingers. That does not serve the children well at all.

[Cow Poke]

The "underlying problem"...

...is we have no actual immigration policy.

That needs to be fixed.

HateTrump won't fix that.

[Sparko]

As with most things, it depends. Some use coyotes. Some enter with other families. Some sneak in on their own. As with most things, it's a mixed bag, as far as I can tell.



I'd like something a bit more than speculation. Can you show me documentation that illegal immigrant families commit crimes as they enter the country? And one article about one family is not going to cut it if were talking about establishing a policy.

Meanwhile, I'll have to give some thought as to how/if this would alter my position if it were shown to be true.

so far all you have is your own speculation about what goes on, yet you demand multiple sources from me? LOL.

I used to live in a border town: El Paso. Little Joe also lives or lived near the border and he mentioned the break-ins. I previously posted articles about illegals crossing the border and being found dead in farmer's fields and sheds and breaking in to people's homes. I also gave a link somewhere to a reality show called Border Wars, which is like COPS, but about Border Patrol agents as they go about capturing illegals. It was on during the Obama years. You can go to youtube and look it up and watch some episodes. At this point even if I gave you a list of such articles you would hand wave them away as "examples aren't proof" like you always do. I don't care if you believe me or not. I was merely making a comment about how ignorant YOU are on the topic.

[Sparko]

so far all you have is your own speculation about what goes on, yet you demand multiple sources from me? LOL.

I used to live in a border town: El Paso. Little Joe also lives or lived near the border and he mentioned the break-ins. I previously posted articles about illegals crossing the border and being found dead in farmer's fields and sheds and breaking in to people's homes. I also gave a link somewhere to a reality show called Border Wars, which is like COPS, but about Border Patrol agents as they go about capturing illegals. It was on during the Obama years. You can go to youtube and look it up and watch some episodes. At this point even if I gave you a list of such articles you would hand wave them away as "examples aren't proof" like you always do. I don't care if you believe me or not. I was merely making a comment about how ignorant YOU are on the topic.

ETA: Having read the other responses now I find it very hypocritical of you (Carp) to demand proof from multiple sources, and yet when given such your counter is "That's not what my sources on the border say, or what I have observed at a border ranch" - basically you are fine to accept anecdotal evidence when it supports your own view, even against documented sources, yet hand-wave away any such evidence from others.

[carpedm9587]

How long ago?

Well - it varies. El Paso was 19 years ago. The hike/riding was a couple of times 3 and 6 years ago. Brownsville was 8 years ago. Yuma and San Diego were last year. Yuma was fun (and a good example of "the border is a muddy river." Just outside Yuma is where the Colorado river runs dry, so it's a muddy strip for a while, and then a dry river bed thereafter. It's a cool hike.

[carpedm9587]

Well, I understand your dubiousness, but I think you didn't really look at that link very closely, much less "dug into it. I say that because, from the link which is an Official Texas Department of Public Safety website BTW, (so not an opinion or even a news article) it says that the crimes committed were "only crimes committed in Texas for State Offenses" and did "not" included Federal Crimes. Illegal entry would qualify as a Federal crime not a State offense...would it not?

These figures do not attempt to allege that foreign nationals in the country illegally commit more crimes than other groups. It simply identifies thousands of crimes that should not have occurred and thousands of victims that should not have been victimized because the perpetrator should not be here. It is also important to note that these figures represent the minimum number of crimes associated with criminal illegal aliens:

• These figures only count arrests in Texas for state offenses. These individuals may have criminal records in other states.
• These figures only represent offenses and convictions that are associated with arrest events that occurred between June 1, 2011 and July 31, 2018.
• The criminal activity for individuals identified as illegal while in prison is under represented for this time period because they may have been incarcerated during the time frame used in this report.
• These figures do not count federal criminal charges.

No - I looked, and read. I presume illegal immigration is federal. But I remain dubious. The numbers just don't align with anything else I've seen from any other state, or at the federal level. Texas is a very conservative state with a strong anti-immigrant agenda. Government can (and does) "spin" too. So I cannot show you that the numbers are wrong, but I remain fairly dubious. I'd want to see some form of independent corroboration, some sort of parity with other (especially border) states, or some explanation for why the numbers are so inflated. "Why is Texas so different," is the question I keep hearing in my head.

I think they should be incarcerated if found guilty of the crimes, THEN deported once their sentence is served.

Why would we pay money to house and feed someone who has forfeited their right to be in our country?

[carpedm9587]

...is we have no actual immigration policy.

That needs to be fixed.

HateTrump won't fix that.

HateObama didn't fix anything either, but I didn't hear a lot of complaining about that behavior, and there has been a heck of a lot of participation.

The rules shouldn't be shifting...

[carpedm9587]

so far all you have is your own speculation about what goes on, yet you demand multiple sources from me? LOL.

I used to live in a border town: El Paso. Little Joe also lives or lived near the border and he mentioned the break-ins. I previously posted articles about illegals crossing the border and being found dead in farmer's fields and sheds and breaking in to people's homes. I also gave a link somewhere to a reality show called Border Wars, which is like COPS, but about Border Patrol agents as they go about capturing illegals. It was on during the Obama years. You can go to youtube and look it up and watch some episodes. At this point even if I gave you a list of such articles you would hand wave them away as "examples aren't proof" like you always do. I don't care if you believe me or not. I was merely making a comment about how ignorant YOU are on the topic.

Really, Sparko? A reality TV show? Like you don't think they cherry pick the most sensational stories to keep eyeballs glued? Reality TV is partly responsible for the mess we're in now. Let's raise our sights a bit...

[carpedm9587]

ETA: Having read the other responses now I find it very hypocritical of you (Carp) to demand proof from multiple sources, and yet when given such your counter is "That's not what my sources on the border say, or what I have observed at a border ranch" - basically you are fine to accept anecdotal evidence when it supports your own view, even against documented sources, yet hand-wave away any such evidence from others.

Except that I'm not just using anecdotal evidence. I've cited sources and have data behind my views. The anecdotals don't prove anything. They just raise the question of why the anecdotals of one side (you, CP, Little Joe) and the anecdotals of the other are so different.

I've also fairly clearly stated my position on illegal immigration, only to have you and several others here twist them into something I didn't say, and then proceed to argue against your own twist on my position. There's not much I can do about that. You're basically shadow-boxing against left-wing memes you dislike, most of which have little or nothing to do with my position and most of which I do not agree with. So, all I can do is let you shadow-box. When you get around to actually addressing my position, I'll be able to respond.

[Cow Poke]

HateObama didn't fix anything either,

I never HatedObama

but I didn't hear a lot of complaining about that behavior, and there has been a heck of a lot of participation.

The rules shouldn't be shifting...

What the sam thunder are you even talking about?

[Cow Poke]

Well - it varies. El Paso was 19 years ago. The hike/riding was a couple of times 3 and 6 years ago. Brownsville was 8 years ago. Yuma and San Diego were last year. Yuma was fun (and a good example of "the border is a muddy river." Just outside Yuma is where the Colorado river runs dry, so it's a muddy strip for a while, and then a dry river bed thereafter. It's a cool hike.

OK, just curious... cause, with the drug dartels, things have REALLY changed down there in the last couple years. We used to do missionary trips "across the border", and we can no longer get the insurance we used to get to cover us while we're there.

[Cow Poke]

didn't[/U] say...

This is about me, isn't it?