Separating immigrant families and imprisoning children

[Cow Poke]

One of the critical elements of the Gospel is grace. It is, in fact, impossibe to be truly good and apart from Christ's work we all fall short. It is also very easy to be convinced or to convince ourselves we are doing the right thing, taking the right position. Jesus also tells the parable of the tares and the wheat, how it is impossible to tell them apart before the harvest and that attempts to do so will tear out wheat along with the tares.

Bottom line, there is no real criterIA for determining who is or who is not a 'true Christian' in the sense you are trying to do. However, no true christian can persist in sin. And so what we do is point out what is wrong and hold each other to the words of Jesus.

Who is and who is not a true christian only God can judge.

Jim

But, on a side note, I have often said from the pulpit - half jokingly - that I'm going to go out and recruit a lost person to come preach on sin, because they have a better understanding of what it is than many Christians. (This, when Christians say something like "I know the Bible says X, BUT...... ) In many cases, it seems lost people have a better grasp on "what is sin" than saved people do.

[Charles]

It must be grand that just happens to line up to just what you already believe. How wonderful that we have you here to tell us that True Christians^TM need to agree with Charles. Of course in reality land there is nothing in the Bible that says you need to welcome people that violate your countries laws or that you have to be nice to them while they ignore said laws. If you say otherwise, feel free to point it out.

My perspective has mainly been on the children. But I think the hearts of many people in here are too hardened to really understand that. Focusing on the "breaking of the law" also seems a bit narrow minded if you take the situations of these persons into account.

[Charles]

One of the critical elements of the Gospel is grace. It is, in fact, impossibe to be truly good and apart from Christ's work we all fall short. It is also very easy to be convinced or to convince ourselves we are doing the right thing, taking the right position. Jesus also tells the parable of the tares and the wheat, how it is impossible to tell them apart before the harvest and that attempts to do so will tear out wheat along with the tares.

Bottom line, there is no real criterIA for determining who is or who is not a 'true Christian' in the sense you are trying to do. However, no true christian can persist in sin. And so what we do is point out what is wrong and hold each other to the words of Jesus.

Who is and who is not a true christian only God can judge.

Jim

I am aware this is how Christians will look at it but since I am not one I allow myself to have another perspective. I allow myself to say that unjust, inhuman and unchristian ways of acting should not be allowed to pass as Christian and thus pass easier than it would have if it was called by its' real name. I am sure that at the end of the day you have certain limits for what you will allow for a person to do while calling himself a Christian. There was this saying about knowing them by their fruits. When I hear children screaming because they are separated from their parents, when I read accounts on what is going on with these children, how they are treated, that they lost track of their parents and so on, and I see so called Christians still supporting those who should be held accountable then I allow myself to say that I am not going to count those persons in as Christians. I know quite many Christians myself and I don't want them associated with this dirt. Grace is not a free pass for continuing on the wrong path as you yourself pointed out.

[JimL]

But, on a side note, I have often said from the pulpit - half jokingly - that I'm going to go out and recruit a lost person to come preach on sin, because they have a better understanding of what it is than many Christians. (This, when Christians say something like "I know the Bible says X, BUT...... ) In many cases, it seems lost people have a better grasp on "what is sin" than saved people do.

Yeah, I guess what's right and what's wrong is just not written on your christian hearts.

[Charles]

But, on a side note, I have often said from the pulpit - half jokingly - that I'm going to go out and recruit a lost person to come preach on sin, because they have a better understanding of what it is than many Christians. (This, when Christians say something like "I know the Bible says X, BUT...... ) In many cases, it seems lost people have a better grasp on "what is sin" than saved people do.

I have to say that I think you deserve respect for this statement as much as we may disagree about quite many other things.

[oxmixmudd]

It must be grand that just happens to line up to just what you already believe. How wonderful that we have you here to tell us that True Christians^TM need to agree with Charles. Of course in reality land there is nothing in the Bible that says you need to welcome people that violate your countries laws or that you have to be nice to them while they ignore said laws. If you say otherwise, feel free to point it out.

On that you are wrong pix. We are to love even our enemies, we are to visit those in prison, and per the impetus of the Jewish law, we are to prefer the stranger among us. Mercy and grace are the two 'laws' if you will under the gospel. There is a difference between the responsibility of the govern mentioned to maintain order vs the responsibility of the individual to follow christ, and this is where there is room for discussion. But a christian can not advocate for merciless judgement on a lawbreaker, lest we come under the judgement of the king whom we owe far more.



Jim

[Charles]

On that you are wrong pix. We are to love even our enemies, we are to visit those in prison, and per the impetus of the Jewish law, we are to prefer the stranger among us. Mercy and grace are the two 'laws' if you will under the gospel. There is a difference between the responsibility of the govern mentioned to maintain order vs the responsibility of the individual to follow christ, and this is where there is room for discussion. But a christian can not advocate for merciless judgement on a lawbreaker, lest we come under the judgement of the king whom we owe far more.



Jim

This reminded me of the words of Bishop Michael Curry who argues that we are experiencing a fundamental distortion of what Christianity is because people are more concerned about Romans 13 than the base for Christinity which is the life and teaching of Jesus. And the teaching of Jesus is certainly not that we should only love those who are friendly towards us, and his words about the law is that love is the fullfilment of the law.

If it doesn't look like love, if it doesn't look like Jesus of Nazareth, it cannot be claimed to be Christian

You can see at all at about 14:30 in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cClISSUAUmg

[demi-conservative]

I'm discussing what Trump is doing now, nearly two years after the election, and asking voters to judge him based on what he has done post-election.

80% chance they put him on Rushmore, lib.

[oxmixmudd]

This reminded me of the words of Bishop Michael Curry who argues that we are experiencing a fundamental distortion of what Christianity is because people are more concerned about Romans 13 than the base for Christinity which is the life and teaching of Jesus. And the teaching of Jesus is certainly not that we should only love those who are friendly towards us, and his words about the law is that love is the fullfilment of the law.



You can see at all at about 14:30 in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cClISSUAUmg

I too have noticed how rarely the words of Christ concerning the poor, the be attitudes and similar passages are taught these days in evangelical churches. The emphasis seems far more on being right (ie following some sort of law) than on the recognition of our own sinfulness and especially our tendency to fend for ourselves at the expense of others. This is the antithesis of Christ who preached against the self righteous, who exalted those despised by the self righteous, who ate with sinners, championed the needs of the poor, and who ultimately laid down His life a sacrifice for all of us, a debt none of us can repay.

Jim

[demi-conservative]

The emphasis seems far more on being right (ie following some sort of law)

You, 'Trump not following law of mine!!! '

This is the antithesis of Christ who preached against the self righteous

You, self righteous.

, who exalted those despised by the self righteous

Trump, exalted. Despise more, see what happens!

Get log out of own eye of yours first.

[Cow Poke]

I have to say that I think you deserve respect for this statement as much as we may disagree about quite many other things.

I've expressed elsewhere that I think - my opinion only - that evangelical churches tend to be big on theology and 'Bible', and not so much on the social gospel -- and liberal churches seem to focus a whole lot on the social gospel, almost to the exclusion of salvific issues.... About 20 years or so ago, it dawned on me that we could do both. Our church is involved in all kinds of social issues, AND we preach salvation, repentance, forgiveness - Christ crucified, buried and risen again.

[Cow Poke]

Yeah, I guess what's right and what's wrong is just not written on your christian hearts.

Sometimes I swear you stay up all night thinking "what really REALLY stupid thing can I post on tweb".

[demi-conservative]

Trump can do almost anything and people will still support him. It boggles the mind, but it is a lesson in why someone like Hitler could rise to power.

Free trade, also illegals killing working class. Left and right, heartless, let them suffer.

God then raised deliverance, also instrument of judgment for people like you. "and the base things of the world and the despised, God has chosen, the things that are not", stone despised will crush you, if no repentance!

[lilpixieofterror]

On that you are wrong pix. We are to love even our enemies, we are to visit those in prison, and per the impetus of the Jewish law, we are to prefer the stranger among us. Mercy and grace are the two 'laws' if you will under the gospel. There is a difference between the responsibility of the govern mentioned to maintain order vs the responsibility of the individual to follow christ, and this is where there is room for discussion. But a christian can not advocate for merciless judgement on a lawbreaker, lest we come under the judgement of the king whom we owe far more.

Merciless Justice would be saying to round them up and kill them or turn the boarder into some kind of Berlin Wall. Saying they should enter the country legally and putting was in which to enter wouldn’t be. What you are advocating here would be a boarderless world. Sorry, but I don’t think you need to welcome someone that ignores a law that isn’t that burdersomen under the guise that enforcing our boarders would be merciless to be a misuse of scripture. After all we’re not Jews living 4,000 years ago that are under the OT law.

[Sparko]

so I am here in Germany for two weeks staying with my sister and her husband. Both 100% German. I was born in Germany when my dad married my mother who is from near Augsburg, meaning I am half-german and the son of a legal immigrant.

Anyhooo... I have been talking with my brother-in-law and sister about all this immigration nonsense. And they told me about their immigration problems. They don't like illegal immigrants who come into Germany, mostly from the Middle East and Turkey, but also from other countries outside the EU. They have the same complaints Americans have, they come into the country and use up the social welfare system, and take jobs from Germans. Even the legal immigrants cause problems. Germany has some odd law that lets a new immigrant be on complete welfare for 5 years, and not have to do any work. So they have time to acclimate to the new country or something. My sister told me of one Iranian guy who moved by her and had a nice business, but after a while he started losing money. The government told him to close his shop and go on this welfare, and he is making nearly 3,000 euros a month not doing anything at all. Meanwhile my sister has retired from 45 years working at Siemans and only gets 1500/month pension.

Also I was at a party and got to talking to some guys and the topic of the transgender bathrooms and all the various genders and the other nonsense we talk about here on Tweb. They were incredulous that such things were even going on in the USA.

So no, Starlight, the world is not like you seem to think it is, with America being the backwards bigoted country that every pities. Here in Germany, they are indeed laughing at America, but because of the LBGTQ+ liberal nonsense.

And they all HATE Merkel.

They don't like Trump either, but they only know what their news reports. But Merkel, they hate.