Separating immigrant families and imprisoning children

[carpedm9587]

You've posted a few yourself in the funny political pictures thread - for "balance", you said.

I plead guilty to that. I found the "funny political pictures thread and realized it was completely slanted to right-wing memes and thought a little balance might be a good thing. I also thought it was kind of funny. Ultimately, I abandoned the effort for three reasons. First, all it was doing was cementing people's perspective that I was a "liberal." Second, I realized that all I was doing was perpetuating the problem. Third, it was largely a waste of my time.

[Mountain Man]

No - you don't have that right.

I'm sure you really believe that.

[carpedm9587]

I'm sure you really believe that.

I do

[seer]

Feinstein was once Trump! Who knew!

[Sparko]

Agreed.

I am astounded.

No. Does asking such questions make you feel better about yourself?

Yes.

If you've been reading my posts, you would know that is NOT a strategy I recommend generally. I included it for the sake of completeness. It has, however, been a selective practice for many past presidents, so lets look at it a bit.

First, we're talking about families only. There is no need to do so for adults traveling independently, they can be prosecuted and detained.

Why should the families get special treatment if they broke the same law? What is to stop people from bringing children with them just to avoid the law? Don't you think encouraging that would endanger MORE children?

Second, statistically, 67% of so-called "catch-and-release" immigrants actually show up for their immigration review (the 80% don't show up number is false).

where are you getting that? Are these the same people who are being arrested? Or are you talking about asylum seekers who are trying to argue their way into the country legally?

Third, the number of illegal immigrants entering/captured is below 500K per year and dropping.

You think 500K is a small number???? And what does that have to do with whether people should be put in jail if they break the law and are flight risks?

I can't believe that someone who is trying to sneak across the border and is caught would come back to pay their "fine" for the ticket they got. That makes no sense whatsoever. They don't even have the money to pay the fine. They will just sneak over again somewhere else.

Fourth, "parents with children" is a subset of the incoming immigrant flow, so it is a fraction of the 500K number. I do not know what that fraction is (half? quarter? three fourths?) and cannot find the number.

If kids are a get in free card the number will become 100%

These are things we know. I also offer the following speculations:

First, I suspect the percentage actually showing up for their immigration hearings is likely higher for families. They are more likely to get leniency, and it is harder to hide an entire family than a single adult or couple. Parents tend to want to care for their kids.
Second, I suspect the number of crimes committed by adults with children is significantly lower than that committed by independent adults entering illegally.

So, we're talking about possibly limiting "catch and release" to a portion of the incoming illegal immigrants (families), that have a decent likelihood of showing up for their hearings, and a low probability of committing crimes.

I'm not seeing something here to get me all that concerned with the idea. It would be better if we had some sort of tracking system for such families (e.g., the house-arrest bracelets used by law enforcement), or perhaps U.S.-based "host families" willing to take legal responsibility (I would sign up for that in a flat minute).



I frankly don't care what "the liberals" want. Like the conservatives, they are going to leverage this issue for political points in any way that they can. The result (usually) is that actual people get caught in the cross hairs, and there is no solution put forward because each side is entrenched and unwilling to give one iota of ground.



You're right. "Federal penitentiary" was incorrect on my part. I read an article about detention centers and the phrase that they were sometimes using actual correctional facilities stuck in my head. By the time I wrote my response, "correctional facilities" had transformed to "federal prisons" and I misspoke. You were right to call me on it, and I appreciate the correction.

You are welcome.

So basically the families are being held together in a detention facility instead of separate detention facilities. Seems like that is a good solution to me. They will be processed and released, either to enter the country or sent back. I don't think any of them are being sent to prisons for any prison sentence. They never were. They were being detained for processing.

Before I understand that if the families were legally seeking asylum, they were always kept together, probably in the low security areas that look like summer camps that we showed earlier.
If the families were trying to enter illegally, the parents were put in the warehouse detention centers (the "cages") and the children were sent to the low security summer camps. Once the parents were processed they were reunited and mostly sent back across the border, but sometimes if they could prove they were in danger in their home country, they could get asylum.

Now, the children of the illegal trespassers will be held in the secure detention facilities with their parents instead of being separated. Just like the liberals wanted.

[demi-conservative]

There are parts of the border that are not even patrolled. And other parts where people can just stroll across.

Need yuge tall Wall. With drones, also patrols, also motion sensor, also underground sensors, also dogs!

[carpedm9587]

I am astounded.

Yes.

Why should the families get special treatment if they broke the same law? What is to stop people from bringing children with them just to avoid the law? Don't you think encouraging that would endanger MORE children?

I don't see why it would do that any more than it has in the past.

where are you getting that?

I found several sources that say the same thing. This is one. Here is another. The second specifically cites immigrant families. I have no been able to find a source for the 90% number. It seems to have come out of thin air.

Are these the same people who are being arrested?

Apparently families...

Or are you talking about asylum seekers who are trying to argue their way into the country legally?

None of this deals with asylum seekers

You think 500K is a small number????

In 2000, illegal immigrant apprehension was 20,651 on coastal borders, 12,108 on the northern border, and 1,643,679 on the southern border. Illegal immigrant population in the U.S. peaked in 2007 at 12.2M. Since then the population has been slightly declining and is now just over 11M. The decline is due to several factors: reduction in illegal immigration, increase in border security/resources, and voluntary departure by illegal immigrants. 2017 illegal immigrant numbers in 2017 were on par with 2015 and numbers and slightly below 2016 numbers: 3,588 coastal apprehensions, 3,027 northern apprehensions, 303,916 southern apprehensions.

Our borders have been significantly strengthened in the last 17 years, and illegal immigration reduced to less than 18% of what it used to be. And that was WITH the original catch-and-release policy implemented by the previous two presidents.

And what does that have to do with whether people should be put in jail if they break the law and are flight risks?

IMO, this is a manufactured "crisis" with little import to every-day life for most people. Yes, it needs to continue to be improved, and it would be nice to get the numbers even lower. Reasonable efforts to do so are encouraged. The fact is we have a very attractive country, and the numbers will never be zero. There will always be people trying to get in. I have no problem with a zero-tolerance policy. I do have a problem with a policy that is inhumane, traps legal residents as well as illegal immigrants, and does not provide adequate attention to valid asylum seekers.

I can't believe that someone who is trying to sneak across the border and is caught would come back to pay their "fine" for the ticket they got. That makes no sense whatsoever. They don't even have the money to pay the fine. They will just sneak over again somewhere else.

And yet, statistically, over 60% of them actually do exactly that. A better monitoring system would help improve those numbers.

If kids are a get in free card the number will become 100%

Other than your gut feel, this is not a claim you can substantiate.

You are welcome.

So basically the families are being held together in a detention facility instead of separate detention facilities. Seems like that is a good solution to me. They will be processed and released, either to enter the country or sent back. I don't think any of them are being sent to prisons for any prison sentence. They never were. They were being detained for processing.

I have no problem with this. For me it is a question of cost/benefit. If we can achieve the same ends with a lower cost, we should, so long as it remains humane.

Before I understand that if the families were legally seeking asylum, they were always kept together, probably in the low security areas that look like summer camps that we showed earlier. If the families were trying to enter illegally, the parents were put in the warehouse detention centers (the "cages") and the children were sent to the low security summer camps. Once the parents were processed they were reunited and mostly sent back across the border, but sometimes if they could prove they were in danger in their home country, they could get asylum.

I wish it was so clear. Apparently, the families with separated with no process in place for reuniting them. So we now have a few thousand kids, some of them babies and toddlers, and no mechanism for matching child to parent. The situation is a mess.

Now, the children of the illegal trespassers will be held in the secure detention facilities with their parents instead of being separated. Just like the liberals wanted.

I have no idea what is going to happen. They are apparently trying to get court approval to bypass the Flores ruling which limited kids to no more than 20 days in custody. There are laws about children in detention/prison facilities (which was why families were not prosecuted for a crime in the past). Trumps EO is far from clear. The situation remains a mess, as best I can tell.

[Littlejoe]

Nor do you.

You are correct, I was wrong, the 11 million number is how many are currently in the US. That's not an annual number...how many illegals do you have in your country?

ETA: If you are in the UK, the est. number of illegals is approx. 533,000 which is less than 1% (0.81%)

https://www.newstatesman.com/2017/02...igrants-are-uk


11 million equates to 3.4% of the US population. According to the Cato Institute, The total number of illegal immigrants successfully entering the Southern border is somewhere in the 200,000 range, (down from a high of 2 million per annum) with an additional 140,000 or so applying for amnesty once caught. No telling how many of those applying are legit.


https://www.cato.org/cato-journal/fa...outhern-border


Meanwhile, the misconception that illegals are here to be law abiding members of society is offset by the numbers of illegals convicted of violent crime. A 2018 Texas DPS report shows 255,000 illegals were charged with more than 265,000 criminal offenses, including violent crimes.

According to DHS status indicators, over 255,000 criminal aliens have been booked into local Texas jails between June 1, 2011 and May 31, 2018, of which over 171,000 were classified as illegal aliens by DHS.


Between June 1, 2011 and May 31, 2018, these 171,000 illegal aliens were charged with more than 265,000 criminal offenses which included arrests for 495 homicide charges; 29,526 assault charges; 5,264 burglary charges; 33,637 drug charges; 350 kidnapping charges; 14,794 theft charges; 21,674 obstructing police charges; 1,537 robbery charges; 3,107 sexual assault charges; and 2,673 weapon charges. DPS criminal history records reflect those criminal charges have thus far resulted in over 110,000 convictions including 219 homicide convictions; 12,244 assault convictions; 2,900 burglary convictions; 16,358 drug convictions; 144 kidnapping convictions; 6,642 theft convictions; 10,508 obstructing police convictions; 929 robbery convictions; 1,528 sexual assault convictions; and 1,167 weapon convictions.

AND these numbers don't count the ones that have never been caught before and didn't have prints on file. According the same report:

At this time, more than 25,000 incarcerated individuals have been identified as being in the country illegally, 10,218 of which were not identified through the PEP program at the time of their arrest.


Lawful Presence Determined While Incarcerated at TDCJ
Between June 1, 2011 and May 31, 2018, these 10,218 individual identified as illegal aliens while in prison, but who were not previously identified through PEP, were charged with more than 6,000 criminal offenses which included arrests for 80 homicide charges; 707 assault charges; 439 burglary charges; 1,183 drug charges; 18 kidnapping charges; 290 theft charges; 584 obstructing police charges; 238 robbery charges; 481 sexual assault charges; and 140 weapon charges. DPS criminal history records reflect those criminal charges have thus far resulted in over 3,000 convictions including 58 homicide convictions; 426 assault convictions; 302 burglary convictions; 681 drug convictions; 8 kidnapping convictions; 167 theft convictions; 263 obstructing police convictions; 179 robbery convictions; 337 sexual assault convictions; and 65 weapon convictions.

https://www.dps.texas.gov/administra...Statistics.htm

Illegal immigrants take a toll on our society in more ways than one.

[Mountain Man]

I do

Better double check with Media Bias Fact Check. Wouldn't want to accidentally think for yourself.

[demi-conservative]

You think 500K is a small number????

Not in backyard of his!

[Mountain Man]

...the 11 million number is how many [illegal immigrants] are currently in the US.

That we know of.

[carpedm9587]

Better double check with Media Bias Fact Check. Wouldn't want to accidentally think for yourself.

MBFC is actually merely a tool.


But then so are you...

[Zymologist]

MBFC is actually merely a tool.


But then so are you...

This was pretty funny.

[Sparko]

I don't see why it would do that any more than it has in the past.

What makes you think it isn't happening now? Remember your earlier comment about the huge number of "unaccompanied" children? That doesn't mean the children were there without adults, but that the adults with them were not their parents or legal guardians. That is what happened the last time when Obama did not prosecute families, remember?

I found several sources that say the same thing. This is one. Here is another. The second specifically cites immigrant families. I have no been able to find a source for the 90% number. It seems to have come out of thin air.

The page just gives out numbers but no sources. Even on the linked pdf. And it does seem to indicate that these are not people who are being arrested and released but asylum seekers and the court cases were asylum procedures:

"Global research supports these conclusions. U.N. Refugee Agency (UNHCR) research across multiple countries found several factors that influence compliance with asylum procedures, including: ensuring that asylum seekers understand their
rights and obligations, the conditions of their release and the consequences of failing to appear; providing legal advice or counsel; providing adequate material support and accommodation throughout the immigration process; and strengthening
community ties"

None of this deals with asylum seekers

Apparently that is not true. see above.

In 2000, illegal immigrant apprehension was 20,651 on coastal borders, 12,108 on the northern border, and 1,643,679 on the southern border. Illegal immigrant population in the U.S. peaked in 2007 at 12.2M. Since then the population has been slightly declining and is now just over 11M. The decline is due to several factors: reduction in illegal immigration, increase in border security/resources, and voluntary departure by illegal immigrants. 2017 illegal immigrant numbers in 2017 were on par with 2015 and numbers and slightly below 2016 numbers: 3,588 coastal apprehensions, 3,027 northern apprehensions, 303,916 southern apprehensions.

Our borders have been significantly strengthened in the last 17 years, and illegal immigration reduced to less than 18% of what it used to be. And that was WITH the original catch-and-release policy implemented by the previous two presidents.

Yes our borders have been strengthened by enforcing the laws. You want to reverse that trend. And the catch and release is not what you think it is (see above)

IMO, this is a manufactured "crisis" with little import to every-day life for most people. Yes, it needs to continue to be improved, and it would be nice to get the numbers even lower. Reasonable efforts to do so are encouraged. The fact is we have a very attractive country, and the numbers will never be zero. There will always be people trying to get in. I have no problem with a zero-tolerance policy. I do have a problem with a policy that is inhumane, traps legal residents as well as illegal immigrants, and does not provide adequate attention to valid asylum seekers.

Well the recent new is indeed a manufactured crisis, considering we have been handling the border pretty much the same way for years. Trump is just more vocal about it and serious about it. The laws have not changed. But if the democrats don't like the laws, then they can change it.

The reason we had child separation in the first place was because people complained about sending children into detention with the parents. Now they are complaining because of being separated. And I bet they will start complaining about keeping them together again.

And no, the solution is not to just release them. What is to stop them from just coming back if there are no consequences whatsoever? We already have cases of people being deported multiple times and coming back. Remember that guy that shot the girl on the pier? I think he was deported over a dozen times.

And yet, statistically, over 60% of them actually do exactly that. A better monitoring system would help improve those numbers.

First, the 60% are not who you claim, see above. Second, 40% NOT showing up is still a huge number!

Other than your gut feel, this is not a claim you can substantiate.

You saw the result in 2014 when Obama stopped prosecuting families.

I wish it was so clear. Apparently, the families with separated with no process in place for reuniting them. So we now have a few thousand kids, some of them babies and toddlers, and no mechanism for matching child to parent. The situation is a mess.

yes that is unacceptable.

I have no idea what is going to happen. They are apparently trying to get court approval to bypass the Flores ruling which limited kids to no more than 20 days in custody. There are laws about children in detention/prison facilities (which was why families were not prosecuted for a crime in the past). Trumps EO is far from clear. The situation remains a mess, as best I can tell.

yep we agree it is a mess.

[carpedm9587]

This was pretty funny.

I try...




For an "old guy"