Separating immigrant families and imprisoning children

[carpedm9587]

And that is why we are the richest country in the world - because, mostly, we have not embraced socialism.

No exactly. In terms of total wealth, the U.S. dominates. In terms of wealth per capita, Norway and Ireland (both socialist countries) are past us. One things that differs is that they do not have the degree of "working poor" we have, because they don't have a Republican party defending the rights of big business to make any profit they can at the expense of their own workers. The U.S. has the most wealth, but that wealth is concentrated in the hands of the few. 50% of our population was an average wealth of zero! The lowest 20% is actually underwater. Meanwhile, the top 1% have 35% of the wealth of our country.

I am much more concerned with our working poor.

See above...

Let me give you a real world consequence. About ten of my sons friends had good paying jobs in roofing and construction a few years back - not one of them have those jobs any more, they were all taken by legal and illegal aliens. Today their jobs pay much less (Home Depot and such). The immigrants live 15-20 people to an apartment (which I know first hand since it happens in my neighborhood) - and will work for less than minimum and pool their money. Now if you are a contractor you may not want to hire such people, but if your competition does you have little choice. So not only does this take away jobs for our working poor, it suppresses wages in general. This, again, is the fault of both parties.

An example is not a argument, Seer, as I've said before. Here in Vermont, itinerant workers are the lifeblood of many of our farms. When the workers were not permitted in under Trump, many farms went under because they could not find the labor they needed to survive.

That too is not an argument - it is merely an example. A thorough argument would be had by looking at immigration affects across the country. You should do that, turning to sites OTHER than the usual right-wing, anti-immigrant sites. Look at the data from Pew Research and the Brookings Institute. You might be surprised by what you find.

[firstfloor]

... forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us ... means be nice to illegals or God will not forgive your sins.

[seer]

No exactly. In terms of total wealth, the U.S. dominates. In terms of wealth per capita, Norway and Ireland (both socialist countries) are past us. One things that differs is that they do not have the degree of "working poor" we have, because they don't have a Republican party defending the rights of big business to make any profit they can at the expense of their own workers. The U.S. has the most wealth, but that wealth is concentrated in the hands of the few. 50% of our population was an average wealth of zero! The lowest 20% is actually underwater. Meanwhile, the top 1% have 35% of the wealth of our country.

Yeah, well that is what happens in free markets. It isn't always fair, some people are lazy, stupid, addicted, others more ambition or had a better early family life, more advantages, etc...

An example is not a argument, Seer, as I've said before. Here in Vermont, itinerant workers are the lifeblood of many of our farms. When the workers were not permitted in under Trump, many farms went under because they could not find the labor they needed to survive.

That too is not an argument - it is merely an example. A thorough argument would be had by looking at immigration affects across the country. You should do that, turning to sites OTHER than the usual right-wing, anti-immigrant sites. Look at the data from Pew Research and the Brookings Institute. You might be surprised by what you find.

Where did Trump stop legal workers from coming it? And BTW there are large studies about wage suppression and the loss of jobs. It is just a fact.

[Cow Poke]

... forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us ... means be nice to illegals or God will not forgive your sins.

You ARE amusing.

Opheilēma/opheiletēs -- debts.

[One Bad Pig]

You ARE amusing.

Opheilēma/opheiletēs -- debts.

More pertinently, as 'trespasses' is a valid translation, being nice to people sometimes entails politely but firmly enforcing the law. It's called tough love - perhaps ff is unfamiliar with the concept.

[Sparko]

An example is not a argument, Seer, as I've said before. Here in Vermont, itinerant workers are the lifeblood of many of our farms. When the workers were not permitted in under Trump, many farms went under because they could not find the labor they needed to survive.

That too is not an argument - it is merely an example. A thorough argument would be had by looking at immigration affects across the country. You should do that, turning to sites OTHER than the usual right-wing, anti-immigrant sites. Look at the data from Pew Research and the Brookings Institute. You might be surprised by what you find.

Isn't that kinda like arguing for slavery because slavery was the lifeblood of plantations, and when slavery was outlawed under Lincoln, many plantations went under because they could not find the labor they needed to survive?

[carpedm9587]

Yeah, well that is what happens in free markets. It isn't always fair, some people are lazy, stupid, addicted, others more ambition or had a better early family life, more advantages, etc...

Wow - the "poor people are lazy, stupid, addicted" perspective. Color me surprised. I note you did toss in the "more advantages" at the end, so good on you for movement in the right direction.

And that, BTW, is the problem with "free markets." A truly free market optimizes one thing: dollars. So they will pollute if it maximizes dollars. They will pay sub-living wages if it maximizes profits. We have yet another example of a company screwing its employees so its most senior people can take golden parachutes as they abandon ship. Polaroid did it years ago. Now Toys R Us is doing the same thing, and there have been may others.

Some of us have other priorities, which is why markets have to be regulated.

Where did Trump stop legal workers from coming it? And BTW there are large studies about wage suppression and the loss of jobs. It is just a fact.

My antenna usually goes up when someone says, "it's just a fact." Usually, they are glossing over a complex reality to pull out one or two nuggets that supports their existing point of view. Trump cut immigration across the board, and only recently has had to reverse himself on worker visas for exactly the reason I cited. Further, the lack of adequate itinerant visas is one of the things that contributes to illegal immigration: itinerant workers can't get in legally, the business need their labor, so they sneak in and the businesses take a chance (or go belly up). Good old Americans are not lining up for these jobs.

The reality, Seer, is that there are instances like the one you described, and there are instances like the ones going on in Vermont. What is needed is a comprehensive immigration policy that is NOT based in fear and hate and recognizes that immigration is important and immigrants are part of our heritage and a large part of how our country functions.

[Cow Poke]

Now Toys R Us is doing the same thing...

They filed Chapter 11 last year, and filed a motion to liquidate their business a couple months ago. Don't you know NUTHIN about the toy world?

[carpedm9587]

They filed Chapter 11 last year, and filed a motion to liquidate their business a couple months ago. Don't you know NUTHIN about the toy world?

Yes - and did you follow what happened to the employees and what happened to the most senior management?

[seer]

Wow - the "poor people are lazy, stupid, addicted" perspective. Color me surprised. I note you did toss in the "more advantages" at the end, so good on you for movement in the right direction.

Those are facts Carp, and I also spoke about better upbringings. Let me give you an example - I fall into the lazy category. I grew up with guys in the lower middle class (both black and white) who with properties and assets would be considered millionaires today. These guys took risks, and when I was out partying every week end, working 9-5, they were working 12 hours a day 6-7 days a week. These kind of opportunities are pretty much open to anyone who works hard. I can't tell you how many people I know from India and Vietnam and from the Islands (Jamaica, Cuba, etc..) that have done extremely well in this great country - better than me, because, well I have always been a bit lazy.

My antenna usually goes up when someone says, "it's just a fact." Usually, they are glossing over a complex reality to pull out one or two nuggets that supports their existing point of view. Trump cut immigration across the board, and only recently has had to reverse himself on worker visas for exactly the reason I cited. Further, the lack of adequate itinerant visas is one of the things that contributes to illegal immigration: itinerant workers can't get in legally, the business need their labor, so they sneak in and the businesses take a chance (or go belly up). Good old Americans are not lining up for these jobs.

I'm still not sure what you mean, here in my state itinerant workers from Haiti and Dominican Republic are still coming up to pick our tobacco. At least they did last year.

[carpedm9587]

Those are facts Carp, and I also spoke about better upbringings. Let me give you an example - I fall into the lazy category. I grew up with guys in the lower middle class (both black and white) who with properties and assets would be considered millionaires today. These guys took risks, and when I was out partying every week end, working 9-5, they were working 12 hours a day 6-7 days a week. These kind of opportunities are pretty much open to anyone who works hard. I can't tell you how many people I know from India and Vietnam and from the Islands (Jamaica, Cuba, etc..) that have done extremely well in this great country - better than me, because, well I have always been a bit lazy.

I took the liberty of bolding the mistaken line in your paragraph. If you think this, then you are either very sheltered, or you have swallowed the koolaid without much actual thought or exploration. I can assure you these opportunities are NOT open to anyone who works hard...and they are not EQUALLY open to everyone who works hard.

I'm still not sure what you mean, here in my state itinerant workers from Haiti and Dominican Republic are still coming up to pick our tobacco. At least they did last year.

I have no idea what the difference is. I do know we are losing farms because of the blocked access to itinerant workers in Vermont.

[Starlight]

And that is why we are the richest country in the world - because, mostly, we have not embraced socialism

On that topic, I came across this fascinating video yesterday. Fascinating, not least, because I'd never heard anyone directly address that question before and wasn't sure of the answer going into it:

Where In the World Is It Easiest To Get Rich?

[NorrinRadd]

...
The children are of varying ages, from toddler to teen. I was not able to determine whether infants were also separated.

I'm just now seeing reports of some of that. My impression is that it's not widespread, and is a result of workers being overwhelmed.

The U.S. lost track of 1475 children in 2017.

Fake News.

Alternative Facts.

[Starlight]

They filed Chapter 11 last year, and filed a motion to liquidate their business a couple months ago.

As I skimmed over your post, I first assumed you were referring to Romans chapter 11, given Sessions keeps using Romans 13 to portray mindless obedience to his authoritarian whims as if it were a virtue. Took me a moment to parse it correctly.

[NorrinRadd]

On the matters of "laws" and "policies" (and, significantly, "court rulings") --

1. Trump Created Separation Of Children From Illegal Immigrant Parents.2. Immigrants Seeking Asylum Are Being Punished For Seeking Asylum.

From here.