Originally posted by firstfloor
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SCOTUS & gay wedding cakes
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Originally posted by firstfloor View PostNeither is flower arranging.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Sorry - but there is a good deal of skill and artistry that can go into make something like a wedding cake. Most people that have constructed their entire livelyhood around creating such things do indeed regard what they do as art, as a full on expression of who they are. It is ridiculous to demand such a person create that which violates a core moral principle they hold. To do so is to demand they participate with you in whatever action they take moral exception to. And as I have said before, IF it was me, I would never have challanged them. If a person tells me they can't participate with me because what I want to do violates their moral convictions, I leave them be. It is wrong to force someone to participate with you in violation of their conscience. Period. The proper approach is to try to persuade them there is a better way. And if their position is suffiently egregious, one can simply boycott them and/or discontinue contact with them.
JimMy brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Gorsuch's concurring opinion is interesting reading.
He refutes the claim that it was a matter of Mr. Phillips refusing to server gay people. (He refused to make a cake celebrating a gay wedding for anyone--including the couple's heterosexual mother. And in general served homosexual customers.)
And responds to all the objections.
E.g., It might be argued that the effect is to discriminate against homosexual people. But then the refusal to make the anti-gay cakes would have to use the same reasoning that it has the effect of discriminating against those of a certain religious belief.
E.g., the argument that the anti-gay cake would have had a message on it, while the cake for the gay wedding would have been the same as any other wedding cake:
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Originally posted by firstfloor View PostNeither is flower arranging.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostDecorating a cake is not art, now?Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostDecorating a cake is not art, now?
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostSorry - but there is a good deal of skill and artistry that can go into make something like a wedding cake. Most people that have constructed their entire livelyhood around creating such things do indeed regard what they do as art, as a full on expression of who they are. It is ridiculous to demand such a person create that which violates a core moral principle they hold. To do so is to demand they participate with you in whatever action they take moral exception to. And as I have said before, IF it was me, I would never have challanged them. If a person tells me they can't participate with me because what I want to do violates their moral convictions, I leave them be. It is wrong to force someone to participate with you in violation of their conscience. Period. The proper approach is to try to persuade them there is a better way. And if their position is suffiently egregious, one can simply boycott them and/or discontinue contact with them.
Jim
How often have we heard the wedding day being described as "the most important" or "special" day in someone's life? A day where so many are striving to make everything as perfect as possible So why in the world would anyone take the chance of spoiling it by involving someone who is fundamentally against what you are doing?
It would be oh so easy for a cake maker to "accidentally" add too much vanilla and make the cake nearly inedible. "Oops, my bad. Don't worry about having to pay me." Or even pull a Jesse Jackson by adding a noxious substance[1]?
Personally, I'd think most people would want everything to go as perfectly as possible on that special day and wouldn't take such a chance. That is of course unless going perfectly for them is defined as deliberately rubbing it into the noses of anyone they think might not approve.
1. For those overseas, Jackson is a famous Civil Rights leader and one time presidential candidate who recounted in an interview that while younger and working as a waiter he would habitually spit in white customers food before serving it.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostNot only is it wrong to try to force someone it is also incredibly moronic.
How often have we heard the wedding day being described as "the most important" or "special" day in someone's life? A day where so many are striving to make everything as perfect as possible So why in the world would anyone take the chance of spoiling it by involving someone who is fundamentally against what you are doing?
It would be oh so easy for a cake maker to "accidentally" add too much vanilla and make the cake nearly inedible. "Oops, my bad. Don't worry about having to pay me." Or even pull a Jesse Jackson by adding a noxious substance[1]?
Personally, I'd think most people would want everything to go as perfectly as possible on that special day and wouldn't take such a chance. That is of course unless going perfectly for them is defined as deliberately rubbing it into the noses of anyone they think might not approve.
1. For those overseas, Jackson is a famous Civil Rights leader and one time presidential candidate who recounted in an interview that while younger and working as a waiter he would habitually spit in white customers food before serving it.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostIt's like saying that painting a portrait is no more art than slapping whitewash on a picket fence is.
picket fence.jpgThe first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostNot only is it wrong to try to force someone it is also incredibly moronic.
Unless the Christian baker was specifically targeted for a test case with the Commissars....Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostSorry - but there is a good deal of skill and artistry that can go into make something like a wedding cake. Most people that have constructed their entire livelyhood around creating such things do indeed regard what they do as art, as a full on expression of who they are. It is ridiculous to demand such a person create that which violates a core moral principle they hold. To do so is to demand they participate with you in whatever action they take moral exception to. And as I have said before, IF it was me, I would never have challanged them. If a person tells me they can't participate with me because what I want to do violates their moral convictions, I leave them be. It is wrong to force someone to participate with you in violation of their conscience. Period. The proper approach is to try to persuade them there is a better way. And if their position is suffiently egregious, one can simply boycott them and/or discontinue contact with them.
Jim
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postyep. If it is not art then the couple could have just gone to the grocery store and bought some cake mix.
The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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