Ireland legalizes the killing of the unborn

[Sparko]

I think we can all agree that when they are born, to which Star was referring, they are "babies".

So vaginas are magical then?
What were they 1 second before being born?

[Charles]

I am not. At that point, if the mother dies, so does the fetus, and intervention is necessary so that at least one life is saved. However, if the fetus is past the point of viability outside the womb (about 24 weeks these days, IIRC), then the living fetus should be safely extracted, not aborted.

There are situations in which it is either the baby/fetus or the mother. This goes in extremely rare cases in which it is discovered too late in the proces of birth that the baby's head is simply too big for the mother to give birth without dying doing so. So only one can live which makes it a lot harder. What would your opinion be? Would you say the mother should die due to what you have written above?

[Zymologist]

Abortion is a procedure which has, as its end goal, the death of the fetus. While I can understand the rare necessity for a very early delivery which would almost certainly result in the death of the unborn baby, to my knowledge there is no case in which an abortion would be necessary to save the mother's life.

If anyone knows of an exception to that, I'm all ears.

[Cow Poke]

Abortion is a procedure which has, as its end goal, the death of the fetus. While I can understand the rare necessity for a very early delivery which would almost certainly result in the death of the unborn baby, to my knowledge there is no case in which an abortion would be necessary to save the mother's life.

If anyone knows of an exception to that, I'm all ears.

A technicality, but an important one.

[Charles]

Abortion is a procedure which has, as its end goal, the death of the fetus. While I can understand the rare necessity for a very early delivery which would almost certainly result in the death of the unborn baby, to my knowledge there is no case in which an abortion would be necessary to save the mother's life.

If anyone knows of an exception to that, I'm all ears.

According to this page it is extremely rare: https://www.abortionfacts.com/facts/8

[One Bad Pig]

There are situations in which it is either the baby/fetus or the mother. This goes in extremely rare cases in which it is discovered too late in the proces of birth that the baby's head is simply too big for the mother to give birth without dying doing so. So only one can live which makes it a lot harder. What would your opinion be? Would you say the mother should die due to what you have written above?

I would say that, in that case, the parents need to decide what to do. It is analogous to a situation in which a rescuer cannot save everyone in a catastrophe, and must choose who to save. There is no right option.

[One Bad Pig]

Abortion is a procedure which has, as its end goal, the death of the fetus. While I can understand the rare necessity for a very early delivery which would almost certainly result in the death of the unborn baby, to my knowledge there is no case in which an abortion would be necessary to save the mother's life.

If anyone knows of an exception to that, I'm all ears.

In an ectopic pregnancy, it would usually be necessary.

[Zymologist]

In an ectopic pregnancy, it would usually be necessary.

Ok, it looks like I was wrong on that.

[Charles]

Ok, it looks like I was wrong on that.

I wouldn't say you were wrong given the fact that you did not attempt to establish anything as a fact.

[firstfloor]

Abortion is a procedure which has, as its end goal, the death of the fetus. While I can understand the rare necessity for a very early delivery which would almost certainly result in the death of the unborn baby, to my knowledge there is no case in which an abortion would be necessary to save the mother's life.

If anyone knows of an exception to that, I'm all ears.

It might be helpful to think of the fetus as a foreign body or parasite that manipulates the host body even to the extent of altering brain chemistry. Instead of babies, think of Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

[Sparko]

There are situations in which it is either the baby/fetus or the mother. This goes in extremely rare cases in which it is discovered too late in the proces of birth that the baby's head is simply too big for the mother to give birth without dying doing so. So only one can live which makes it a lot harder. What would your opinion be? Would you say the mother should die due to what you have written above?

They have this thing called Cesarean Section, that has been around quite a while for times when the baby doesn't fit or is breech.


But to answer your question... If it is a question of the baby OR the mother, then I think the decision should be left to the parents to decide together. If it means that both will die if the baby is not aborted (ectopic pregnancy for example) then I have no problem with aborting the baby. It has no chance to live no matter what. No reason for the mother to die too.

[Sparko]

Abortion is a procedure which has, as its end goal, the death of the fetus. While I can understand the rare necessity for a very early delivery which would almost certainly result in the death of the unborn baby, to my knowledge there is no case in which an abortion would be necessary to save the mother's life.

If anyone knows of an exception to that, I'm all ears.

Ectopic pregnancy. Where the baby implants in the fallopian tubes. The baby cannot survive and if it is allowed to grow too large the mother could die (internal bleeding)

[Sparko]

It might be helpful to think of the fetus as a foreign body or parasite that manipulates the host body even to the extent of altering brain chemistry. Instead of babies, think of Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

The evil parasite attacked the woman and crawled into her uterus when she wasn't looking, right?

[Charles]

They have this thing called Cesarean Section, that has been around quite a while for times when the baby doesn't fit or is breech.


But to answer your question... If it is a question of the baby OR the mother, then I think the decision should be left to the parents to decide together. If it means that both will die if the baby is not aborted (ectopic pregnancy for example) then I have no problem with aborting the baby. It has no chance to live no matter what. No reason for the mother to die too.

I guess we agree with OBP that there is no simple answer to this question. If I had to make a decision between mother and baby I would question that decision forever. If I made no decision, I would question the decision of not making a decision. My best guess is I would choose the mother over the child. However once the child was born I would probably choose the baby over the mother at any time. And I am against abortion, so it actually does not make much sence but at least I am honest.

[Cow Poke]

I guess we agree with OBP that there is no simple answer to this question. If I had to make a decision between mother and baby I would question that decision forever. If I made no decision, I would question the decision of not making a decision. My best guess is I would choose the mother over the child. However once the child was born I would probably choose the baby over the mother at any time. And I am against abortion, so it actually does not make much sence but at least I am honest.

It's kind of like having a loved one on life support, Charles. You don't want them to linger forever in a vegetative state, but if you authorize "pulling the plug", you'll always wonder, especially when you hear about those rare cases when somebody "wakes up" and resumes living.

In the baby situation, I would hope that the doctors would do everything they could to save the baby, but without further risking the life of the mother.