Florida School Shooting

[Darth Executor]

That's what I was getting at with respect to Darth's idea that the absolute loss of gun rights, which I haven't argued, should lead to violence against the state and your fellow citizens. Then by that calculus, if this appeal to the Declaration of Independence is justification, then the people wronged by open access--those dying in the horrific public attacks, those living in fear of criminals, etc., have more justification to resort to violence now right against a state that, at best, wrings its hands and clutches at pearls of "hopes and prayers" and, at worst, ignores the suffering. That is a demonstrable loss of the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

fwiw,
guacamole

The reason why they are suffering is because they refuse to adapt to America's founding principles, which include self-reliance and self-sufficiency. They expect someone else to protect them and cower begging and crying when someone shows up with a gun. They can literally go anywhere else on the planet and get the awkward attempts at providing them with protection at the expense of personal autonomy and liberty that they crave.

Nevermind the absurdity of them refusing to use violence against the people killing them but you trying to justify its use against people who DO take steps to defend themselves.

IMO America should just expel you all. You, Adrift, and anyone else who expects the state to strip them of basic personal autonomy in exchange for vague protections against relatively small numbers of mostly avoidable killings. You are not really Americans and would fit much better literally anywhere else on the planet.


edit: looks like i fail to take my own advice from elsewhere, there's no reason to even accept the progressive frame where gun owners are to blame for school shootings and thus fair targets for retaliation in the first place.

[guacamole]

The reason why they are suffering is because they refuse to adapt to America's founding principles, which include self-reliance and self-sufficiency.

I missed those parts in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

They expect someone else to protect them and cower begging and crying when someone shows up to with a gun. They can literally go anywhere else on the planet and get the awkward attempts at providing them with protection at the expense of personal autonomy and liberty that they crave.

That's the common conservative response--but what if they cannot leave? What if they cannot afford a gun? What if their pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness doesn't involve a gun. In other words, why do they have to live the way you say?

Nevermind the absurdity of them refusing to use violence against the people killing them but you trying to justify its use against people who DO take steps to defend themselves.

I covered that in the "By that calculus" qualifier. I don't think it's a good idea at all.

IMO America should just expel you all. You, Adrift, and anyone else who expects the state to strip them of basic personal autonomy in exchange for vague protections against relatively small numbers of mostly avoidable killings. You are not really Americans and would fit much better literally anywhere else on the planet.

[Sparko]

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
- Ben Frankin

[Cow Poke]

You are so insensitive! Aren't you ashamed?

I am NOT ashamed or the Gospel of Christ, for.....





oh, wrong thread.

[guacamole]

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
- Ben Frankin

"You guys need to stop quoting that in the wrong context."

-Ben Franklin.

[Sparko]

"You guys need to stop quoting that in the wrong context."

-Ben Franklin.

Makes sense in any context.
- Abe Lincoln.

[Cow Poke]

"You guys need to stop quoting that in the wrong context."

-Ben Franklin.

I just looked that up and saw an article making your case.

-Cow the Poke

[Cow Poke]

Bacon (and not Sir Francis)

-eat your heart out.

[Darth Executor]

I missed those parts in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

I can tell.

That's the common conservative response--but what if they cannot leave? What if they cannot afford a gun? What if their pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness doesn't involve a gun. In other words, why do they have to live the way you say?

No different from what people like me have to suffer in a country where I can't have a gun or reasonably protect myself without getting in trouble with the law. They should work towards improving their situation so they can leave. God willing as soon as I have the means to I will leave this country.

It's hard to deny. Your constitution literally has the right to bear arms in it. You are not really American in any sense of the word (except the racist one that you are American by blood, and you and adrift cry more about racism than just about anyone else here)

[guacamole]

Makes sense in any context.
- Abe Lincoln.

"It's a nice, even admirable sentiment, but that's not what he meant."

-Gandalf the White

[Sparko]

I just looked that up and saw an article making your case.

-Cow the Poke

[guacamole]

I can tell.

Indeed.

No different from what people like me have to suffer in a country where I can't have a gun or reasonably protect myself without getting in trouble with the law. They should work towards improving their situation so they can leave. God willing as soon as I have the means to I will leave this country.

I was under the impression that Canada was quite safe.

It's hard to deny. Your constitution literally has the right to bear arms in it. You are not really American in any sense of the word (except the racist one that you are American by blood, and you and adrift cry more about racism than just about anyone else here)

Okay.

[Darth Executor]

I was under the impression that Canada was quite safe.

It's safer than the US on average, but like with anything else it depends where you live. There are regular shootings here, mostly gang stuff.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toront...ings-1.4499716

And recently some pharma mogul and his wife were murdered in their home. cops tried to call it a murder suicide and blame the guy but nobody believed them and after the local media ran an investigation they relented, re-investigated and admitted it was murder. probably organized crime, cops on the payroll, don't expect anything to come of it.


Anyway, the point comes down to radically different personalities. You're a chicken, I'm a wolf. You think violence is unambiguously bad, so you tend to support policies that keep it as far away from you as possible. I think violence is good and useful and you cannot call yourself human (or a man) if you don't respect and master it to some degree. So you would be content in Canada while I would be content in the US. Wanna swap?

[Mountain Man]

Well, no. It's backed with data provided here, https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fvs03.pdf

I don't see anything in that study to suggest that a wife wouldn't seek alternative means of dispatching her husband if a gun wasn't available.

[guacamole]

It's safer than the US on average, but like with anything else it depends where you live. There are regular shootings here, mostly gang stuff.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toront...ings-1.4499716

And recently some pharma mogul and his wife were murdered in their home. cops tried to call it a murder suicide and blame the guy but nobody believed them and after the local media ran an investigation they relented, re-investigated and admitted it was murder. probably organized crime, cops on the payroll, don't expect anything to come of it.


Anyway, the point comes down to radically different personalities. You're a chicken, I'm a wolf. You think violence is unambiguously bad, so you tend to support policies that keep it as far away from you as possible. I think violence is good and useful and you cannot call yourself human (or a man) if you don't respect and master it to some degree. So you would be content in Canada while I would be content in the US. Wanna swap?

Sure. Can we make it a television show and make lots of money? I figure it still helps to be wealthy in Canada. I think I should bring a conservative American and you a liberal Canadian so that the odd couple contrasts can continue.