Originally posted by carpedm9587
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The Concept of Privilege
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI am using white privilege in the conventional sense, as far as I know: any systemic privilege that is derived from being white (caucasian).Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostBetter yet, how about we stop falsely accusing people.
Likewise, it is accurate to say that there is a higher rate of violent crime in the black community than the white. That is a measurable fact. It would be wrong of me to accuse a person of being violent because they are black.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostThe false implication behind the term is that only whites can be privileged. It's ugly, divisive, and unfair to whites.
This is what I say when I point out that I spend more time addressing accusations that have nothing to do with what I am saying than I do actually discussing the core issue. And when every assertion on my part that what you are reflecting back is rejected, despite every attempt to carefully use words, I have to assume that the problem is with the recipient.
You are continually adding things to what I say that I did not put there and do not intend. There is nothing I can do about that.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI have not said to anyone that they, individually, are implicitly biased.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAt no point did I say, imply, or think that privilege is limited to white people.
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI am using white privilege in the conventional sense, as far as I know: any systemic privilege that is derived from being white (caucasian).Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostUm...
Example: monetary value is something associated with coins.
This does not mean other things do not have monetary value (checks, stocks, property, etc.) nor does it mean that the only attribute of coins is "monetary value." They also have shape, color, weight, and a whole range of other attributes.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostWhen you throw around ugly, divisive, racially charged terms like "white privilege", you are implicitly accusing all white people, and only white people, of being inherently if unconsciously racist simply because they happened to be born white. That's the philosophy at the heart of critical race theory and why liberals love to tell white people (and almost elusively white people) to "check your privilege". It's a nasty, unfair, anti-white ideology that promotes class envy.
You're welcome to them, MM, but you're wrong and simply, stubbornly, refusing to acknowledge it. I can no longer say I've never seen you acknowledge error, because now I have seen you do it once. But you do seem pretty resistant to doing so, even when the evidence is provided to you.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSo we seem to have a problem here with fundamental logic. That I can derive privilege from being white does not imply or mean a) other races have no privilege, or b) being white means I only have privilege with no downsides. These are meanings you are adding to the sentence.
Example: monetary value is something associated with coins.
This does not mean other things do not have monetary value (checks, stocks, property, etc.) nor does it mean that the only attribute of coins is "monetary value." They also have shape, color, weight, and a whole range of other attributes.
Am I privileged because I'm white? In some ways, sure. I couldn't say what the alternative would be like.
Ditto because I'm male? In some ways, sure. I mean, other than statistics regarding dangerous jobs, custody battles, suicide, lifespan, etc.
Am I disadvantaged because I'm unattractive, and/or [insert any of a multitude of variables here]? In some ways, sure.
In my experience, somebody will acknowledge at least some of the huge number of possible variables, and then almost immediately fall back to "white, male privilege." It's frustrating.I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.
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Originally posted by Zymologist View PostI think this illustrates my issue with the whole discussion: bring up "white privilege," and unless one is overly simplistic (e.g., "you're white, therefore you're privileged"), then one seemingly has to add so many qualifications that I fail to see the usefulness of the concept.
Am I privileged because I'm white? In some ways, sure. I couldn't say what the alternative would be like.
Ditto because I'm male? In some ways, sure. I mean, other than statistics regarding dangerous jobs, custody battles, suicide, lifespan, etc.
Am I disadvantaged because I'm unattractive, and/or [insert any of a multitude of variables here]? In some ways, sure.
In my experience, somebody will acknowledge at least some of the huge number of possible variables, and then almost immediately fall back to "white, male privilege." It's frustrating.
That does not make the existence of these "privileges" less real. They are systemic, measurable, real, and unjust. It simply means not all people benefit equally from systemic, and unjust, privilege.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThere are systemic ways in which I am privileged by my whiteness. There are systemic ways in which I am privileged by my maleness. There are systemic ways in which I am privileged by my incredible good looks (ok - maybe that's a bit of a stretch ). That doe snot imply all white people everywhere experience those privileges to the same degree, and there are some who do not experience them at all (i.e., a person with a white-sounding name who has never written or submitted a resume is not going to experience the "privilege" that occurs in that context.). A person who is male who doesn't play a musical instrument is not going to experience the "privilege" their maleness would give them in that context.
That does not make the existence of these "privileges" less real. They are systemic, measurable, real, and unjust. It simply means not all people benefit equally from systemic, and unjust, privilege.Last edited by Zymologist; 01-30-2018, 03:54 PM.I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.
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Originally posted by Zymologist View PostI think this is what people take objection to; I'm not sure that I've really seen this demonstrated. It's one of those topics that, if you'll allow me to say so, people aren't really "allowed" to question nowadays.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Zymologist View PostI think this is what people take objection to; I'm not sure that I've really seen this demonstrated. It's one of those topics that, if you'll allow me to say so, people aren't really "allowed" to question nowadays.
This is what is meant when folks talk about the fact that we are in a new age where facts just don't matter. If the facts don't fit the opinion, they are simply discarded or ignored. IMO, that's a pretty dangerous way to function. It's a threat to democracy, and it's a threat to civil society, IMO.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI gave two examples, both of which were backed by studies. There are others. At this point, however, there seems little point in going further. The denizens of this particular forum appear to be dedicated to the proposition that none of this exists, and no amount of data seems likely to change that perspective.
This is what is meant when folks talk about the fact that we are in a new age where facts just don't matter. If the facts don't fit the opinion, they are simply discarded or ignored. IMO, that's a pretty dangerous way to function. It's a threat to democracy, and it's a threat to civil society, IMO.
Edit: e.g., "you disagree? Obviously you just don't care about facts."
^that sort of talk is why I'm virtually incapable of taking politics seriously. It happens everywhere.I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.
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Originally posted by Zymologist View PostAnd this is why I mentioned not being "allowed" to question it. If you're going to be this dismissive, I don't see the point in going further either.
Edit: e.g., "you disagree? Obviously you just don't care about facts."
^that sort of talk is why I'm virtually incapable of taking politics seriously. It happens everywhere.
And if someone believes that the studies I've provided are not accurate, then tell me how they are not accurate. If you believe the conclusions they draw do not mean what they are claimed to mean, then let's discuss that. If you have other evidence that is sourced and comes to a different conclusion, let's discuss that.
But to simply wave them away and ignore them? I would suggest it is not I being dismissive.Last edited by carpedm9587; 01-30-2018, 05:15 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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