Roy Moore accused of sexual contact with 14-year old

[Mountain Man]

So what? If it is OK for an older man to marry a 12-year-old in the bible and that is not immoral according to Mountain Man...

Woah, woah, woah... when did you drop the age to 12 in this discussion? I thought we were talking about 14-years and older.

[guacamole]

I think the Bible is more complex on this issue than you're giving it credit for. It doesn't actually command arranged marriage, or most of the other stuff you're listing.

Yes and no. IIRC, there is no given formula for how a marriage is supposed to take place in scripture. There is a pretty clear expectation for how marriage is supposed to occur, enough so that other, later authorities formalize the arrangement, and there is documentary evidence of it in the textual record.

But again, you're being inconsistently literal here: the Bible doesn't give a command that marriage be done in a particular way (in fact, there are notable exceptions to the standard arrangement), it doesn't give a command that one be married at all, and it doesn't specify the ideal age for a marriageable girl. There's still no Biblical cover for Moore then. There are exactly 0 examples of anything remotely parallel to Moore's behavior in scripture that is given the stamp of approval.

It all comes back to the key point: it's inconsistent to pick and choose which parts of the ancient Jewish model to use--if Moore gets cover because marriage was allowable to young teens according to the ancient model, then he gets condemned by the same model on other particulars of the arrangement--lack of supervision, approach to the girl by the suitor, lack of a male relative in authority, etc.

There is no difference between a "creeper" and a clumsy fool. When girls refer to a man as a "creep," they simply mean that he is an unattractive fool. The word doesn't carry any actual moral weight.

You are correct that the words are imprecise. I should have written that at best, Moore was clumsy and thoughtless in his pursuit, at worst, he behavior was not above reproach--he foolishly put himself in circumstances where either he could be tempted or where others could make accusations that he couldn't rebut.

What the 14-year-old alleges is that Moore was tempted to engage in premarital sex, and that he came close to engaging in it, but that due to her own supposed virtue she convinced him to abstain from any further sin, and take her home. (Funny how none of these women claim to have been actually raped or statutorily-raped by Moore. Instead, they always manage to escape him and emerge as heroes.)

One woman is alleging assault.

fwiw,
guacamole

[Adrift]

This might be relevant to the conversation,



So basically we're not seeing a massive age gap in 1st century Israel. Mary was likely a teenager between the age of 13 and 16 (though possibly older), and Joseph was likely between the ages of 18 and 20. But that's just for when they got married. We know that Mary and Joseph didn't consummate their marriage till after Jesus was born, so we have to take that into consideration as well. I don't think using the 1st century marrying customs is a great defense for Moore. Not only is the age gap not that wide, but we're talking apples and oranges between the two cultures.

[Sparko]

Woah, woah, woah... when did you drop the age to 12 in this discussion? I thought we were talking about 14-years and older.

You said:

You have to remember that according to ancient Jewish customs and laws, females over the age of 12 were considered to be women, so to bolster your objections with trigger words like "pedophilia" is unwarranted.

So you personally draw the line at 14 then? Why?

[Darth Executor]

This might be relevant to the conversation,



So basically we're not seeing a massive age gap in 1st century Israel. Mary was likely a teenager between the age of 13 and 16 (though possibly older), and Joseph was likely between the ages of 18 and 20. But that's just for when they got married. We know that Mary and Joseph didn't consummate their marriage till after Jesus was born, so we have to take that into consideration as well. I don't think using the 1st century marrying customs is a great defense for Moore. Not only is the age gap not that wide, but we're talking apples and oranges between the two cultures.

The argument is against claims that Moore would be breaking some sort of religious rule by doing so.

[Mountain Man]

You said:

So you personally draw the line at 14 then? Why?

"Over the age of 12" is not 12.

And I draw the line around 14 because throughout the vast majority of human history, females past puberty have been regarded as women, including among "God's Chosen People", and it's likely that Mary was close to that age when she became pregnant with Jesus and married Joseph who, according to Jewish custom, could have been as old as his mid-20s at the time. If you think this is inherently immoral then might I ask what scriptural or historical context you are basing it on?

[Mountain Man]

I don't think using the 1st century marrying customs is a great defense for Moore.

I'm simply stating that it's not inherently immoral for an older man to date or marry a young woman. I'm not saying that it's necessarily appropriate or advisable, only that it is not inherently immoral.

[Sparko]

"Over the age of 12" is not 12.

so what? 12 and a half? 13? That would be OK?

And I draw the line around 14 because throughout the vast majority of human history, females past puberty have been regarded as women, including among "God's Chosen People", and it's likely that Mary was close to that age when she became pregnant with Jesus and married Joseph who, according to Jewish custom, could have been as old as his mid-20s at the time. If you think this is inherently immoral then might I ask what scriptural or historical context you are basing it on?

So if a 12 year old was past puberty then it would be OK to get married to a 30 year old? Earlier you made it sound like it was "emotional maturity" that made the difference. Now it is old enough to bleed, old enough to breed?

[Adrift]

I'm simply stating that it's not inherently immoral for an older man to date or marry a young woman. I'm not saying that it's necessarily appropriate or advisable, only that it is not inherently immoral.

Maybe I'm not understanding the argument. You're basing the morality of this subject on Mary and Joseph in the 1st century, correct? Not on any particular Biblical mandate. But the morality of early marriage and consummation of that marriage in the 1st century was contingent on a number of factors that don't exist in the 20th/21st century United States, including standard life expectancies, and the need to propagate one's family name. Again, not only was Mary and Joseph's age gap probably not so wide, but you're attempting to overlay our culture on top of their culture, and then you're saying "it's not inherently immoral". I'm not sure that's really appropriate. At least, it doesn't seem so to me.

[Mountain Man]

Earlier you made it sound like it was "emotional maturity" that made the difference.

No I didn't. Emotional maturity is only part of it.

[Sparko]

I'm simply stating that it's not inherently immoral for an older man to date or marry a young woman. I'm not saying that it's necessarily appropriate or advisable, only that it is not inherently immoral.

So the next time we discuss a pedophile having sex with a 12 or 13 year old and he claims it was "love" -- what excuse are you going to use to condemn his actions as immoral?

[Mountain Man]

Maybe I'm not understanding the argument. You're basing the morality of this subject on Mary and Joseph in the 1st century, correct? Not on any particular Biblical mandate. But the morality of early marriage and consummation of that marriage in the 1st century was contingent on a number of factors that don't exist in the 20th/21st century United States, including standard life expectancies, and the need to propagate one's family name. Again, not only was Mary and Joseph's age gap probably not so wide, but you're attempting to overlay our culture on top of their culture, and then you're saying "it's not inherently immoral". I'm not sure that's really appropriate. At least, it doesn't seem so to me.

If something is inherently immoral then social norms are irrelevant, and it seems to me that if God didn't want his Chosen People doing something that was inherently immoral then he would have explicitly laid out those guidelines to the Israelites, but since he didn't, I think we can safely assume that their customs and traditions on this matter were not inherently immoral.

To put it another way, in our modern society, there are cultural reasons why older men probably shouldn't be dating and marrying younger women, but there are no inherently moral reasons.

[Sparko]

If something is inherently immoral then social norms are irrelevant, and it seems to me that if God didn't want his Chosen People doing something that was inherently immoral then he would have explicitly laid out those guidelines to the Israelites, but since he didn't, I think we can safely assume that their customs and traditions on this matter were not inherently immoral.

To put it another way, in our modern society, there are cultural reasons why older men probably shouldn't be dating and marrying younger women, but there are no inherently moral reasons.

so pedophilia is just a cultural thing then. I will remember this thread the next time I hear you whining about NAMBLA.

[Obsidian]

it doesn't give a command that one be married at all, and it doesn't specify the ideal age for a marriageable girl. There's still no Biblical cover for Moore then. There are exactly 0 examples of anything remotely parallel to Moore's behavior in scripture that is given the stamp of approval.

1 Corinthians 7:38
But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age [probably refers to puberty], and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry.

Hebrews 13:4
Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

Besides, you are flipping the script. We're not commanded to abstain from everything where God is silent. We're commanding to abstain from doing things that he actually prohibits.

it's inconsistent to pick and choose which parts of the ancient Jewish model to use

I don't base my judgments on "the ancient Jewish model." I base my judgments on God's law.

One woman is alleging assault.

She's alleging that he touched her breasts -- nothing particularly shameful about making such an accusation -- and that he TRIED to rape her. None of the women come forward and say, "Roy Moore raped me 40 years ago. I'm damaged goods." Instead, they all portray themselves as heroes who managed to beat him.

[Mountain Man]

So the next time we discuss a pedophile having sex with a 12 or 13 year old and he claims it was "love" -- what excuse are you going to use to condemn his actions as immoral?

There are a lot of reasons we could condemn it as immoral, the two biggest being that it's against the law, and I don't believe a 12- or 13-year old is necessarily emotionally or mentally mature enough to give informed consent. Some might be, but I think the exceptions would be so rare that they're really not worth considering. It's worth noting that in Jewish tradition, it was the family -- specifically the father -- who decided if the woman could marry and not the woman herself.