Liberal Atheists are at it again.

[Cow Poke]

A short time later....



Not necessarily contradictory, but I do find it kind of amusing.

Yeah, I'm becoming convinced he's just a dishonest . Nobody can be that ignorant and still type (such as he does).

[JimL]

Yeah, I'm becoming convinced he's just a dishonest . Nobody can be that ignorant and still type (such as he does).

I'm perfectly comfortable with the term as it defines my perspective, if you and yours don't like it, thats your problem.

[Cow Poke]

I'm perfectly comfortable with the term as it defines my perspective, if you and yours don't like it, thats your problem.

No, actually it's not my problem, Jim. It just proves and underscores your ignorance. It's your problem because it proves you have zero credibility.

[Roy]

He [Jefferson] believed that Jesus was God's son, ...

This does not seem to be the case. Jefferson's revised bible contains nothing to suggest Jesus's birth was in any way exceptional:

Joseph and Mary go to Bethlehem, Where Jesus is Born.
AND it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
2 (And this taxing ways first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)
3 And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.
4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, (because he was of the house and lineage of David,)
5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.
6 And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.
7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.

[Sparko]

So, in order to be a christian, one doesn't have to believe in Jesus as christ god? Gotcha.

You are being completely dishonest now. Your original post above is in response to my post where I clearly said that Jefferson would not be considered an orthodox Christian, but HE CONSIDERED HIMSELF TO BE A CHRISTIAN. Which means he believed not only in Christ but in Christ's father, Yahweh. He was not a deist who simply believed in a God who had just create everything and sat back which is what Deism is.

We have several members on our site right now who we don't allow the tag of Christian but make them set their tags to Unorthodox but they are not deists and probably consider themselves Christian and we are the heretics. But they still believe in YAHWEH even if their version of YAHWEH is not correct. Jehovah's Witnesses for example. Or unitarians.

[Roy]

So, in order to be a christian, one doesn't have to believe in Jesus as christ god? Gotcha.

It's correct. One can be a Christian by following Jesus's teachings. One can be a Christian by believing Jesus was divine.

Jefferson seems to have been the former type of Christian, but not the latter.

[Cow Poke]

It's correct. One can be a Christian by following Jesus's teachings. One can be a Christian by believing Jesus was divine.

Jefferson seems to have been the former type of Christian, but not the latter.

Christian can simply be interpreted as "Christ follower" or "little Christ" or "imitator of Christ", so, yeah, many people who (even selectively) "follow the example of Jesus" call themselves "Christians". When I'm talking to somebody who claims to be a "Christian", I often have to probe a little to find out what, exactly, they mean.

[Sparko]

Christian can simply be interpreted as "Christ follower" or "little Christ" or "imitator of Christ", so, yeah, many people who (even selectively) "follow the example of Jesus" call themselves "Christians". When I'm talking to somebody who claims to be a "Christian", I often have to probe a little to find out what, exactly, they mean.

Someone who claims to be Christian is not necessarily a true Christian, but it can show you what kind of God they believe in. In Jefferson's case it shows that he was talking about the Christian God when he talks about God because he thought of himself as a Christian, even if he was a heretic. He didn't believe in some generic nature God, or Allah, or Krishna. He was not a satan worshipper, or an agnostic, or wiccan. The God he referred to is the God of Abraham.

[One Bad Pig]

This does not seem to be the case. Jefferson's revised bible contains nothing to suggest Jesus's birth was in any way exceptional:

Joseph and Mary go to Bethlehem, Where Jesus is Born.
AND it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
2 (And this taxing ways first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)
3 And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.
4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, (because he was of the house and lineage of David,)
5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.
6 And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.
7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.

...which does not necessarily mean that Jefferson didn't think he was the son of God:

[Sparko]

...which does not necessarily mean that Jefferson didn't think he was the son of God:

If he didn't believe in the Christian God, why even bother trying to rewrite the Christian bible?

[JimL]

It's correct. One can be a Christian by following Jesus's teachings. One can be a Christian by believing Jesus was divine.

Jefferson seems to have been the former type of Christian, but not the latter.

Well possibly, but Jefferson didn't really believe in Jesus as the god/man depicted in the christian bible, but only believed with those teachings of Jesus that he personally agreed with. The bibles Jesus was not necessarily Jeffersons Jesus, as he created his own Jesus from excerpts. Jefferson actually despised the authors of the Gosples as nothing more than con men. So, it's complicated, and perhaps one can take from the bible only what they agree with, discard the rest, and still claim to be christian, but to me they are only fooling themselves in doing so.

[Roy]

If he didn't believe in the Christian God, why even bother trying to rewrite the Christian bible?

"I, too, have made a wee-little book from the same materials (The Gospels) which I call the Philosophy of Jesus. It is a paradigma of his doctrines, made by cutting the texts out of the book and arranging them on the pages of a blank book, in a certain order of time or subject. A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen. It is a document in proof that I am a REAL CHRISTIAN, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call ME infidel and THEMSELVES Christians and preachers of the Gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said nor saw."

You could have found this as easily as I did.

[Sparko]

"I, too, have made a wee-little book from the same materials (The Gospels) which I call the Philosophy of Jesus. It is a paradigma of his doctrines, made by cutting the texts out of the book and arranging them on the pages of a blank book, in a certain order of time or subject. A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen. It is a document in proof that I am a REAL CHRISTIAN, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call ME infidel and THEMSELVES Christians and preachers of the Gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said nor saw."

You could have found this as easily as I did.

derp.

wanna try again?

We know he believed in God. The only question is which God? If he believed in Jesus and followed him, and calls himself a Christian then the obvious answer is the Christian God. Even if he didn't believe Jesus was divine himself.

[JimL]

derp.

wanna try again?

We know he believed in God. The only question is which God? If he believed in Jesus and followed him, and calls himself a Christian then the obvious answer is the Christian God. Even if he didn't believe Jesus was divine himself.

I would disagree, Jefferson believed in the moral philosophy of the man Jesus, and perhaps in the same kind of benevolent god that the philosophy itself depicted, but he didn't believe in the same Hebrew god that the Jesus of the bible is depicted as being one with.

[Sparko]

I would disagree, Jefferson believed in the moral philosophy of the man Jesus, and perhaps in the same kind of benevolent god that the philosophy itself depicted, but he didn't believe in the same Hebrew god that the Jesus of the bible is depicted as being one with.

JimL, we know he believed in a God. We know he followed Jesus.
What would be the odds that he followed Jesus and his teachings but believed in a completely different God than Jesus did? It makes no sense.

Also the God of the DOI has to be a personal God, not some nebulous God of deism, a cosmic watchmaker, because it specifically refers to a God of judging and a God who gives inalienable rights to mankind. I know of no other God than the God of Christianity and of Abraham that fits that description that he could possibly believe in.