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On National Pride and Shame

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  • On National Pride and Shame

    I recently visited Fort Pickens, which is located on the west end of a barrier island west of Pensacola Beach. The fort was built in the 1830s, lightly used during the Civil War (mostly by the union forces), recommissioned during WWII, and it has largely been a tourist area since that war. It was a fascinating place to explore, and I found myself reading many of the historical plaques scattered around the fort. Two of them jumped out at me.

    First, there was a plaque noting the fact that most of the original fort had been built using slave labor. Once again, we have an example of a major project made possible by the stolen labor of human beings in bondage. Many of those slaves possessed some of the skills the Florida government, shamefully, insists needs to be reported in textbooks as a “benefit of slavery.”

    Second, there was the plaque that described the fate of Geronimo, including pictures of both him and the Native Americans imprisoned with him at Fort Pickens for over a year. Geronimo, it seems, never saw his homeland again after his capture and imprisonment. As I looked at the picture of him sitting with his compatriots, I found myself wondering what was going through his mind as the picture was taken.

    I also found myself feeling a sense of profound shame. I reflected on that a bit, and two things emerged for me.

    First, the shame I was feeling was not personal shame. I did not enslave black people and I did not imprison Geronimo or treat all of his people so badly. Indeed, I have used some of my life and resources to try to reverse at least some of the ongoing effects of those historical acts, as minor as those efforts might have been. The shame I was feeling can only be described as “national shame.” You see, I am a citizen of the United States of America. The United States of America is not merely a chunk of land. If there were no people, there would be no “United States of America.” It takes sentient beings to create nations and establish national boundaries. That makes the United States a living thing. It was conceived when the first European settlers established a colony on this soil, birthed when those settlers and their progeny decided to separate from England and went to war for that right, and has been in existence continuously since that time.

    As a member of that living organism, I share in the national shame that arises from any shameful act perpetrated by that organism, past or present. I also share in the responsibility to make right, as much as is possible, the lingering injustices that flow from those events.

    Second, I found myself reflecting on shame and pride. You see, it is not possible to consistently claim one without the other. If it is okay to look at the past and present actions of the United States and take pride in them, then it is also necessary to look at the past and present actions of the United States and be ashamed of those that were (or are) simply wrong. We cannot justly claim pride in the Greatest Generation, the first Moon Landing, the role the United States played in WWI and WWII, the struggle to free ourselves from England, the leaps of invention, and all of the other things we feel pride about and ignore the slaves our laws enabled, the 3/5ths clause of our constitution, the treatment of Native Americans over the years, Japanese internment camps, the Chinese Exclusion Act, the exclusion of women from the vote, and all of the other things about America that are blots on our national history.

    A just society looks at everything, delighting in the good while acknowledging and owning the bad. As with individuals, I believe a nation should be looking at that past to do two things: own what needs to be owned and make any appropriate restitution, and learn from it so that the ill is never repeated again.

    Just as the good this nation has done (and is doing) can never be taken from us and will always be a source of national pride, so too the ill we have done can never be taken from us and will always be a source of national shame. We have, in many instances, risen to the call of our better angels. We have also, in many instances, acted out of the darkest places of the human person.

    A true understanding of our national identity accepts and acknowledges both.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  • #2
    We didn't do anything that most nations didn't do in the history of their existence. Look at the American Indians, they slaughtered each other, enslaved each other and conquered each others lands long before the Europeans showed up. And slavery was a near universal institution. One can lament these things with out excessive navel gazing or emotional hand ringing...
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      We didn't do anything that most nations didn't do in the history of their existence. Look at the American Indians, they slaughtered each other, enslaved each other and conquered each others lands long before the Europeans showed up. And slavery was a near universal institution. One can lament these things with out excessive navel gazing or emotional hand ringing...
      For instance, the Black Hills of South Dakota was considered sacred land by the Lakota and Sioux before the U.S. cavalry forced them away. But the Lakota had only been there for barely a century having driven the Cheyenne and Crow away from the region, who in turn had driven the Kiowa and Arapaho from the region only a few decades previously after they drove off the Arika.

      The point is that this is nothing new. I mean the Lombardy region of Italy is named after the Germanic invaders who controlled the area in the 6th into 8th centuries.

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • #4
        I feel no shame about what other people may have done in the past. Why should I?
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          We didn't do anything that most nations didn't do in the history of their existence. Look at the American Indians, they slaughtered each other, enslaved each other and conquered each others lands long before the Europeans showed up. And slavery was a near universal institution. One can lament these things with out excessive navel gazing or emotional hand ringing...
          At the end of the day, "they all did it too" does not seem like a very strong ethical argument to me.
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            I feel no shame about what other people may have done in the past. Why should I?
            I did not expect you would, MM. And you will note that I distinguish between personal shame and national shame.

            But that suggests a question: do you feel a sense of national pride at our historical accomplishments as a nation?
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • #7
              As an aside, my thanks to whoever deleted the duplicate thread. I posted, got an error, tried again, and got another error. SO I backed up to the main page (Civics 101) only to find that both attempts had posted.
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post

                At the end of the day, "they all did it too" does not seem like a very strong ethical argument to me.
                But ethics are relative right, so I'm not sure what your objection is. But my point is that human history is replete with such evils and it does no good to become maudlin over specific instances.







                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post

                  do you feel a sense of national pride at our historical accomplishments as a nation?
                  I certainly do, we created the most powerful and richest nation in human history, a nation that was essential in developing universal human rights...
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    But ethics are relative right, so I'm not sure what your objection is.
                    Yes, they are. And if/when you are ever able to marshall an argument against relative ethics that doesn't reduce to "but...but.. then it's not absolute," perhaps we can discuss that further. My argument here, however, is a meta-argument: I know of NO ethical framework in which "but they did it too!" is a justified defense. I am pretty sure that includes yours.

                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    But my point is that human history is replete with such evils and it does no good to become maudlin over specific instances.
                    Then should I also assume that you would advocate that anyone currently in jail be immediately released? After all, history is replete with such evils, and it does no good to become maudlin over specific instances, right?
                    Last edited by carpedm9587; 04-25-2024, 05:20 PM.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      I certainly do, we created the most powerful and richest nation in human history, a nation that was essential in developing universal human rights...
                      So you feel pride over our past accomplishments even though you had no direct hand in most of them, but selectively elect not to feel shame over our faults on the same basis? How do you justify this?
                      Last edited by carpedm9587; 04-25-2024, 05:19 PM.
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post

                        Yes, they are. And if/when you are ever able to marshall an argument against relative ethics that doesn't reduce to "but...but.. then it's not absolute," perhaps we can discuss that further. My argument here, however, is a meta-argument: I know of NO ethical framework in which "but they did it too!" is a justified defense. I am pretty sure that includes yours.
                        But that is the argument, that you have no rational grounds to object to the things you mentioned. Emotional grounds perhaps(emotivism).


                        Then should I also assume that you would advocate that anyone currently in jail be immediately released? After all, history is replete with such evils, and it does no good to become non se·qui·turover specific instances, right?
                        A non sequitur, if I ever saw one...

                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post

                          I did not expect you would, MM. And you will note that I distinguish between personal shame and national shame.

                          But that suggests a question: do you feel a sense of national pride at our historical accomplishments as a nation?
                          I notice you didn't answer my question: Why should I feel any shame about what other people did in the past?

                          As Qui-Gin Jinn said, "Your focus determines your reality." People like you will say, "America is a great nation, but it has its problems," while others will say, "America has its problems, but it's a great nation." Notice where the emphasis lands. Why, for example, should you feel ashamed of slavery instead of feeling a sense of pride that our ancestors overcame it? You want to dwell in defeat instead of celebrating victory.

                          Your attitude is why liberal talk radio never took off, because nobody wants to listen to such pessimistic nonsense.
                          Last edited by Mountain Man; 04-25-2024, 05:44 PM.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post

                            So you feel pride over our past accomplishments even though you had no direct hand in most of them, but selectively elect not to feel shame over our faults on the same basis? How do you justify this?
                            I love this country, and yes I played my small part. And I'm grateful to those who came before me and the nation they created.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              But that is the argument, that you have no rational grounds to object to the things you mentioned. Emotional grounds perhaps(emotivism).
                              Of course I do, Seer. I can simply point to inconsistencies in your own ethical framework, as I have been doing. It's perfectly rational, since I am using your ethical framework as the basis. It also happens to be inconsistent with every other ethical framework I know of. And you are sidetracking here. I suspect you realize that your position cannot even be justified by your own ethics.


                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              A non sequitur, if I ever saw one...
                              Actually, it wasn't. I'm simply applying your own position consistently. Your position, as I understand it, is that we should ignore the ills perpetrated by our country in the past because most (all?) other countries did this too. We should not quibble over specific instances of injustice or engage in maudlin reverie because the practice is so widespread.

                              Ergo, murders are incredibly widespread. Rape is incredibly widespread. Theft is incredibly widespread. By your own argument, we should not be quibbling over particular instances of such acts given their widespread nature.

                              If you think this is an incorrect application of your rule, then it would be helpful to see HOW it has gone awry, rather than just dismissing it as a "non sequitur," without any counter argument. Clearly, it is NOT a non sequitur.
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment

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