Anti-Semitism vs anti-Zionism

[seer]

“I love the Jews, support their right to exist, and am saddened they’re mostly going to Hell.”

And? I could say that about half my family...

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Obviously no thinking on your part. This was written after snipping off the rest of my post where I provide an example.

My emphasis. Where?

Anti-Semites often try to hide behind being anti-Zionists. One might look at who they criticize and who they remain silent about. Are they condemning acts by the Jews but merely not condoning the same acts when others commit them and they are asked about them?

I provided a way of distinguishing between someone who is just anti-Zionist from someone who is anti-Semitic and pretending to be just anti-Zionist. Who masks their anti-Semitism in anti-Zionism.

You provided your own opinion in the form of questions.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

This text?

"One might look at who they criticize and who they remain silent about. Are they condemning acts by the Jews but merely not condoning the same acts when others commit them and they are asked about them?"

That's a scenario. It's not an example,* fr which you'd need a specific instance, and it's not evidence.

*of some-one hiding anti-Semitism behind anti-Zionism.

As some might write "Bingo"!

[rogue06]

My emphasis. Where?

Why am I not surprised that you would pretend not to see it

[rogue06]

Kind of ironic that in another thread star has signaled that he is fine with people being arrested for looking Jewish -- just as long as it isn't for their physical appearance but rather their attire.

[Roy]

Kind of ironic that in another thread star has signaled that he is fine with people being arrested for looking Jewish -- just as long as it isn't for their physical appearance but rather their attire.

That's so far removed from what Starlight actually wrote that either you couldn't be bothered to read it, or you're deliberately misrepresenting him.

[oxmixmudd]

Kind of ironic that in another thread star has signaled that he is fine with people being arrested for looking Jewish -- just as long as it isn't for their physical appearance but rather their attire.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

The Alma Mater of rogue06?

[CivilDiscourse]

The Alma Mater of rogue06?

[Cow Poke]

Christians often try to sound like they’re in solidarity with Jews until they get to the pesky topic of Jesus. It’s acceptance of them with the understanding that Israel is mostly condemned for not believing the new theology and sticking with the old formula.

[Cerebrum123]

Yeah, there is an issue with posting that has been likely caused by a DDoS attack. I have a few posts with the same issue as well. It seems to be tied to the enter key.

 

[CivilDiscourse]

A surprising number of people seem confused about the difference between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism...

A simple analogy to consider is when the US founders fought the British:
- Were the Americans against British people as a race? No. Many / most Americans were substantially of British decent. They weren't self-hating towards their own race. They weren't racist against people of British descent.
- Were the Americans opposed to the policies and actions of the government and country of Britain / England? Yes. That's why they fought them in a war.
The Americans didn't fight the British because they were opposed to the race of the British people. They fought them over political differences, around who they thought should have political control a particular region (i.e. America).

In a similar way, being anti-Semitic refers to being racist against Jews. Racism doesn't need much explanation. Do you dislike Jewish people? Or do you think "Jews are bad people"? Or do you want them to die or suffer because they're Jewish? Then you're racist against them, and thus are anti-Semitic.

Completely separate to that, is what one thinks about Israel the country (Zionism / anti-Zionism). Most Jews in the world don't live in Israel. What one thinks about the actions of Israel the country are totally separate to what one thinks about Jews. One can be a Jew, or like Jews, and yet oppose the actions of the country Israel or even fight against it in a war. Americans of British descent fought against Britain the country in their war of independence. Americans today might be of British ancestry and yet dislike or be neutral or apathetic towards the UK today and to its government and policies. In the same way it's perfectly possible for people of Jewish descent to be neutral towards or disinterested in the country of Israel, or dislike or protest its political policies, or even to militarily fight it in a war.

And it can work the other way too, one can be racist against Jews (anti-Semitic) and yet support Israel the country (pro-Zionist). A couple of examples:

1. The Prime Minister of Britain in 1903, Lord Belfour, hated Jews (he was anti-Semitic) and passed laws to stop any more Jews coming to Britain. He wanted them gone from his country because he disliked them. He decided it would be great if they were to go somewhere else, then they wouldn't trouble him with their presence. In the 1917 Belfour Declaration, he declared that Jews ought to leave England and go live in the middle east in the desert there, and that that would be awesome, and that they could call their new country Israel, and he thought it would be great if as many Jews as possible left Britain and went there. He's famous among the pro-Zionists (supporters of the re-founding of Israel), because that declaration is widely credited with being a major factor in the re-formation of the state of Israel. As a result Lord Belfour is celebrated by Zionists, and there's a statue of him in Israel. But his support for the country of Israel and for Jews moving there (pro-Zionism) came from his anti-Semitism (he was a racist who hated Jews and wanted them gone from Britain).

2. Christians who believe in particular versions of Book of Revelation based apocalyptic end-times. The re-creation of the state of Israel in the middle east and Jews moving there is often seen as a key precursor the end-times and return of Christ. According to some versions, there will eventually be an apocalyptic battle in the region that will kill most of the Jews (!), and most of the Jews will reject Christ and thus go to hell (!). As a result, some Christians who want the end times to come are keen to see the nation of Israel (temporarily) thrive, and for Jews to move to it... ...so they can be violently killed and go to hell. This is pro-Zionist (supports and cheer-leads the re-formation of the nation of Israel and Jews moving there) but is anti-Semitic (wants people of the Jewish race to suffer and die).

There are plenty of Jews in the world who don't particularly like Israel. The majority of Jews in the world have chosen not to move to Israel. Obviously the vast majority of such Jews are not self-hating, they don't dislike their own race, they aren't racist against Jews (anti-Semitic). But there might be something about the idea of re-establishing the country of Israel, or the policies of the government of Israel that they don't like (anti-Zionism). Here are a few reasons some Jews don't like Israel:

A. Religion. Orthodox Jews believed that the Messiah would re-establish Israel as part of his prophesied divine mission. They didn't believe the Messiah has come yet. So they viewed it as heresy for humans to pre-empt God by re-establishing Israel when that's supposed to be something God does through the Messiah.

B. Lack of religion. A lot of Jews aren't religious. So they don't give two figs about the country of Israel and any biblical prophesies about it. They are perfectly happy living in their own countries, and roll their eyes at Israel and its actions.

C. Concern for the safety of Jews. Re-establishing Israel and concentrating Jews there is unsafe for Jews. It's geographically unsafe for the Jews in Israel to be surrounded by Muslim countries that don't particularly like Jews, and to have upset those peoples by stealing so much land in the region including areas that are holy in their religion. Pretty much all other countries in the area do not like Israel and could potentially fight Israel in future military conflicts. As Israel is majority-Jewish, any wars it engages in with its neighbours could be mass casualty events for Jews. If anyone ever detonated a single nuke in Israel that could kill as many Jews as Hitler did in the Holocaust. Simply put: It's not safe for Jews to be geographically concentrated in Israel. Furthermore, any time Israel hits the international news, it triggers anti-Semites around the world (who are too dumb to understand the difference between the country of Israel and people of the Jewish race or religion) to do random hate attacks against Jews in the rest of the world. Anti-Semitic attacks are way up around the world since October 6th. So Israel's existence doesn't just make the Jews in Israel less safe, it makes Jews everywhere in the world less safe.

D. Morality. Stealing other people's land, and operating an apartheid state, are both deeply immoral. For the country of Israel to exist in its present form, and as a "Jewish state", has required stealing huge amounts of land from Palestinians, kicking them out of their homes, and creating millions of refugees. That is immoral. For Israel to be a "Jewish state" requires in some way giving Jewish people within Israel precedence over non-Jewish people, which is called 'apartheid' and generally regarded as morally awful. A lot of Jews around the world think those things are terrible to do, that Israel shouldn't be doing them, and that Israel in its present form shouldn't exist because such those deep immoralities are innately part of that existence.

Hopefully that helps people understand how anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism differ. A lot of anti-Semites are pro-Zionists due to their anti-Semitism (e.g. #1 and #2 above), and a lot of Jews are anti-Zionists due to their Jewishness (#A through #D above).

If we take a look at the anti-semitic happenings at protests at Columbia University (which the White House condemned) what we see is even if the distinction you are trying to make is true, those who are "Anti-zionist" seem VEEEERRRY comfortable with "anti-Semitism" being in their midst, and VEEEERRRY willing to tolerate them, their beliefs, their words and behaviors.

[oxmixmudd]

I wonder who or what would think TWEB warranted that sort of attack, and yes, the enter key seems to be the primary culprit for triggerring the insertion of new characters. 

Im curious how a denial of service attack could get tied to a specific character being entered in a post. Could it  be malware on the tweb server(s) instead?

[Starlight]

That's so far removed from what Starlight actually wrote that either you couldn't be bothered to read it, or you're deliberately misrepresenting him.

I can only assume that Rogue reads the first sentence of my posts, and fills the rests from his imagination. He has a very strange and disturbing imagination apparently.

The frequency with which he claims I said things where I said the opposite is quite remarkable.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Why am I not surprised that you would pretend not to see it

Both myself and Roy read what you wrote and drew similar conclusions.