Two Israelis call for torture and the committing of potential war crimes

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

There is no comparison. Hamas is a terrorist organization that just went full rampage on civilians, then denied they did it. They are pathological liars. They don't care about their own people's lives, they use human shields. They lie about casualties. They lie about everything. If their lips move, it's probably a lie.

Yet you are willing to believe them and give them the benefit of the doubt, while actually doubting Israel, the victims here, claiming that there is a possibility they might lie too. Why would they bother? Hamas has already shown themselves to be monsters to the world. Nothing they say can be trusted.

Absolutely no comparison.

What do you mean by "There is no comparison"?

Let me restate again at this present moment I do not trust either side in its pronouncements. Both sides will lie and distort if it suits their respective agenda. It is generally known as propaganda.

[Sparko]

What do you mean by "There is no comparison"?

Let me restate again at this present moment I do not trust either side in its pronouncements. Both sides will lie and distort if it suits their respective agenda. It is generally known as propaganda.

Here is how much you can trust Hamas' word.

An excerpt from an interview with Kaled Qodomi, a Hamas representative when talking about the attack on Israel. He actually blames the Palestinians instead of admitting it was Hamas who went on the killing spree. Based on his blame shifting, Israel is justified in blowing the hell out of Palestinian civilians, but not innocent Hamas!

video: https://youtu.be/48opYBCWjDM?si=lk3PdpyV1lNnj4Ce&t=182


I SPOKE TO HIM.
I SAID, WHY THE BRUTALITY?
IF YOU ARE FIGHTING AN ARMY,
WHY THE BRUTALITY OF MURDERING
WOMEN, CHILDREN, ABDUCTING THEM,
THROWING THEM IN THE BACK OF A
PICK UP AND DRIVING THEM TO
GAZA?

HE DENIED THAT.

HE SAID THOSE WERE NOT HAMAS
FIGHTERS THAT DID THAT.

THERE IS VIDEO OUT THERE.
YOU CAN SEE THAT.

THE EXCHANGE GOT QUITE HEATED.
HE EVENTUALLY SAID, NO, THESE
WERE JUST REGULAR PALESTINIAN
PEOPLE WHO HAVE SUCH A BIG
GRUDGE AGAINST ISRAEL.
THEY SAW THE HOLE IN THE FENCE
AND THEY POURED ACROSS AND THEY
WERE EXACTING REVENGE.

I KEPT PUSHING THE POINT.
THEY ARE ARMED GROUPS LIKE A
MILITIA.

I DON'T CONDONE ANYTHING LIKE
THIS BAD BEHAVIOR.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT HE MEANT BY
BAD BEHAVIOR BUT HE SAID HE
DIDN'T CONDONE BAD BEHAVIOR.

HE WAS TRYING TO WALK AWAY FROM
THE FACT THAT HAMAS HAD
COMMITTED THESE HORRIBLE
ATROCITIES WHICH CLEARLY WAS
NOT JUST THAT.

WHEN WE SPOKE ABOUT THE
INNOCENT PALESTINIANS WHO ARE
GOING TO GET POUNDED IN THIS,
HE HAD HIS OWN TALKING POINTS,
SAYING THAT ALL THE
PALESTINIANS WERE BEHIND THIS.

[rogue06]

You can't have a gold star for that, not even a silver star....it's so obvious.
Israel has let a little little bit in to appease Mr President's wishes, methinks.

So for you is it that Israel is damned if they do, damned if they don't?

I think that Hamas will die fighting, killing and hating. I don't hold out a lot of hope for hostages or Palestinian refugees at the moment. I just hope that Sunni Islam will stay back.

The big question right now is whether or not Hezbollah (which are Shia) will hold back.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Here is how much you can trust Hamas' word.

An excerpt from an interview with Kaled Qodomi, a Hamas representative when talking about the attack on Israel. He actually blames the Palestinians instead of admitting it was Hamas who went on the killing spree. Based on his blame shifting, Israel is justified in blowing the hell out of Palestinian civilians, but not innocent Hamas!

video: https://youtu.be/48opYBCWjDM?si=lk3PdpyV1lNnj4Ce&t=182


I SPOKE TO HIM.
I SAID, WHY THE BRUTALITY?
IF YOU ARE FIGHTING AN ARMY,
WHY THE BRUTALITY OF MURDERING
WOMEN, CHILDREN, ABDUCTING THEM,
THROWING THEM IN THE BACK OF A
PICK UP AND DRIVING THEM TO
GAZA?

HE DENIED THAT.

HE SAID THOSE WERE NOT HAMAS
FIGHTERS THAT DID THAT.

THERE IS VIDEO OUT THERE.
YOU CAN SEE THAT.

THE EXCHANGE GOT QUITE HEATED.
HE EVENTUALLY SAID, NO, THESE
WERE JUST REGULAR PALESTINIAN
PEOPLE WHO HAVE SUCH A BIG
GRUDGE AGAINST ISRAEL.
THEY SAW THE HOLE IN THE FENCE
AND THEY POURED ACROSS AND THEY
WERE EXACTING REVENGE.

I KEPT PUSHING THE POINT.
THEY ARE ARMED GROUPS LIKE A
MILITIA.

I DON'T CONDONE ANYTHING LIKE
THIS BAD BEHAVIOR.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT HE MEANT BY
BAD BEHAVIOR BUT HE SAID HE
DIDN'T CONDONE BAD BEHAVIOR.

HE WAS TRYING TO WALK AWAY FROM
THE FACT THAT HAMAS HAD
COMMITTED THESE HORRIBLE
ATROCITIES WHICH CLEARLY WAS
NOT JUST THAT.

WHEN WE SPOKE ABOUT THE
INNOCENT PALESTINIANS WHO ARE
GOING TO GET POUNDED IN THIS,
HE HAD HIS OWN TALKING POINTS,
SAYING THAT ALL THE
PALESTINIANS WERE BEHIND THIS.

Do you know anything about wartime propaganda? Of course that Hamas representative was going to say those things. The claim that the Palestinian people are behind Hamas is no different from the propaganda on both sides during WW2. In Britain there were people actively involved in supporting Hitler. In the early months following the declaration of war in 1939 more people in Britain were listening to William Joyce [Lord Haw Haw] broadcasting propaganda from Germany than the BBC. Others were less than supportive of the war effort and that included after 1940 the effect it was having on their lives. The same was true here, but most were not prepared to risk openly denouncing the war and the Nazi regime, and those that did ended up dead.

The interview also noted that not everyone in Iran supports Hamas. Ali Alrouzi referred to football matches as an example. However, in a police state [as in Nazi Germany] taking a stand that contradicts or challenges the official position is always extremely dangerous. We have seen that in recent years in Iran.

[Sparko]

Do you know anything about wartime propaganda? Of course that Hamas representative was going to say those things. The claim that the Palestinian people are behind Hamas is no different from the propaganda on both sides during WW2. In Britain there were people actively involved in supporting Hitler. In the early months following the declaration of war in 1939 more people in Britain were listening to William Joyce [Lord Haw Haw] broadcasting propaganda from Germany than the BBC. Others were less than supportive of the war effort and that included after 1940 the effect it was having on their lives. The same was true here, but most were not prepared to risk openly denouncing the war and the Nazi regime, and those that did ended up dead.

The interview also noted that not everyone in Iran supports Hamas. Ali Alrouzi referred to football matches as an example. However, in a police state [as in Nazi Germany] taking a stand that contradicts or challenges the official position is always extremely dangerous. We have seen that in recent years in Iran.

So when Hamas lies, it is "of course they lied, what do you expect, it's war!" ??

You are excusing Hamas for lying while making accusations against Israel as being liars without evidence.

Hypatia,This shows Hamas doesn't care about the Palestinian people, This guy threw the Palestinians under the bus while claiming Hamas was innocent. You have been defending the Palestinians, saying that they are not involved so Israel needs to stop killing them in Gaza. Yet if we take Hamas' word on it, it is actually the Palestinian people who did this atrocity, not Hamas. If true, then Israel is completely justified in wiping out the civilians in Gaza. They would no longer be noncombatants.

Perhaps that is what Hamas wants.


These are evil people. Stop excusing their actions. You are acting like a Hamas apologist at this point. In your analogy above, Hitler is Hamas, and you are one of the people supporting him.

[Cow Poke]

What do you mean by "There is no comparison"?

Let me restate again at this present moment I do not trust either side in its pronouncements. Both sides will lie and distort if it suits their respective agenda. It is generally known as propaganda.

No comparison -

Only one of the combatants has declared that the other must be wiped from the face of the earth.
Only one side has launched a war on the other knowing full well that the result would be hell for their own people.
Only one side has launched a war with murder of civilians, rape, kidnapping, murder of children and other war crimes as their strategy.
Only one side actually used war crimes as a primary strategy.

No comparison.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

So when Hamas lies, it is "of course they lied, what do you expect, it's war!" ??

This is propaganda and Israel also uses propaganda.

You are excusing Hamas for lying while making accusations against Israel as being liars without evidence

Hypatia,This shows Hamas doesn't care about the Palestinian people, This guy threw the Palestinians under the bus while claiming Hamas was innocent. You have been defending the Palestinians, saying that they are not involved so Israel needs to stop killing them in Gaza. Yet if we take Hamas' word on it, it is actually the Palestinian people who did this atrocity, not Hamas. If true, then Israel is completely justified in wiping out the civilians in Gaza. They would no longer be noncombatants.

Perhaps that is what Hamas wants.


These are evil people. Stop excusing their actions. You are acting like a Hamas apologist at this point. In your analogy above, Hitler is Hamas, and you are one of the people supporting him.

I shall ignore the rest of this histrionic response. Histrionics do seem to feature quite prominently in some of your posts.

I suggest you go away do some serious reading on the history of this region from the early twentieth century as well as how propaganda is used in war time.

[Cow Poke]

I shall ignore the rest of this histrionic response....

One can't ignore something by calling attention to it.

[Sparko]

This is propaganda and Israel also uses propaganda.

I shall ignore the rest of this histrionic response. Histrionics do seem to feature quite prominently in some of your posts.

I suggest you go away do some serious reading on the history of this region from the early twentieth century as well as how propaganda is used in war time.

Histrionics? This seems to be your go to response when you realize you have no counter-argument or you realize you are wrong but don't want to admit it. You accuse the other person of "histrionics" or some other ad hom in order to avoid the topic. I have learned to take such a response as your admission of having lost the argument.

Please educate me where Israel has used "propaganda" to blame their OWN citizens for an horrific attack on others?


That is not "propaganda" on Hamas' part, that is outright lying and blame-shifting to the very people they are supposed to represent and govern. They just threw their own people under the bus and made them valid targets for retaliation. A pretty stupid bit of "propaganda" unless they WANT Israel to kill innocent civilians.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

One can't ignore something by calling attention to it.

I merely quoted him as a courtesy gesture.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Histrionics? This seems to be your go to response when you realize you have no counter-argument or you realize you are wrong but don't want to admit it. You accuse the other person of "histrionics" or some other ad hom in order to avoid the topic. I have learned to take such a response as your admission of having lost the argument.

It is my response to over-emotional and somewhat hysterical males who appear incapable of dispassionately and rationally engaging in an exchange.

Please educate me where Israel has used "propaganda" to blame their OWN citizens for an horrific attack on others?

Israel uses propaganda. Take the beheaded babies as an example. Journalists could find no evidence only reports from IDF soldiers. And when pressed to provide evidence the IDF went silent. Why? Who started that rumour? Was it done to further outrage the rest of the world and provide justification and support for Israel in its future actions in Gaza? Who knows.

That is not "propaganda" on Hamas' part, that is outright lying and blame-shifting to the very people they are supposed to represent and govern. They just threw their own people under the bus and made them valid targets for retaliation. A pretty stupid bit of "propaganda" unless they WANT Israel to kill innocent civilians.

Then they are getting their heart's desire.

[Cow Poke]

I merely quoted him as a courtesy gesture.

When one "ignores" something, one cannot be responding to it.

[Cow Poke]

It is my response to over-emotional and somewhat hysterical males who appear incapable of dispassionately and rationally engaging in an exchange.

This is about me, isn't it?

And I've been so much less mean to you!

[Sparko]

It is my response to over-emotional and somewhat hysterical males who appear incapable of dispassionately and rationally engaging in an exchange.

Israel uses propaganda. Take the beheaded babies as an example. Journalists could find no evidence only reports from IDF soldiers. And when pressed to provide evidence the IDF went silent. Why? Who started that rumour? Was it done to further outrage the rest of the world and provide justification and support for Israel in its future actions in Gaza? Who knows.

This is another example of you accepting Hamas' claims without evidence, but when Israel makes a claim you demand incontrovertible proof.

But the question I asked was where has Israel thrown their own citizens under the bus for the actions of their military, as Hamas is doing. How is blaming Palestinian citizens for Hamas' murderous actions in any way "propaganda?" - propaganda is blaming Israel for what Hamas has done, like with the hospital incident.

Then they are getting their heart's desire.

Exactly. Hamas WANTS Israel to kill innocent Palestinians. They are evil. Why do you keep excusing their actions with your "what-aboutisms" and "well it is war propaganda" apologetics?

When a group goes around murdering civilians, raping women and terrorizing an entire country, and then have the audacity to blame their own citizens they no longer deserve the benefit of the doubt. They have lost all moral high ground to be believed in anything they say. They no longer can claim they are oppressed victims when they themselves are the ones oppressing and blaming their own people.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

This is another example of you accepting Hamas' claims without evidence, but when Israel makes a claim you demand incontrovertible proof.

I never referred to Hamas. I mentioned journalists who could find no evidence of this atrocity and when the IDF was questioned about that alleged atrocity it fell silent. Why?

But the question I asked was where has Israel thrown their own citizens under the bus for the actions of their military, as Hamas is doing. How is blaming Palestinian citizens for Hamas' murderous actions in any way "propaganda?" - propaganda is blaming Israel for what Hamas has done, like with the hospital incident.

As I have previously noted, we still have no third party verification as to who was responsible for that explosion. However, as I also noted neither side is going to openly admit its involvement.

Exactly. Hamas WANTS Israel to kill innocent Palestinians. They are evil.

There you go again with hysterical language. Your syntax is also atrocious. Who are evil? "innocent Palestinians"?

When a group goes around murdering civilians, raping women and terrorizing an entire country, and then have the audacity to blame their own citizens they no longer deserve the benefit of the doubt. They have lost all moral high ground to be believed in anything they say. They no longer can claim they are oppressed victims when they themselves are the ones oppressing and blaming their own people.

I agree that Hamas' actions were monstrous. However, by inciting this retaliation by Israel it seems [and again this only premised on what I have read] that Hamas is hoping to encourage other Arab groups to join its cause. In other words possibly start another major Middle Eastern war. However, it is somewhat difficult to get inside the mind-set of fanatics, irrespective of from which side of the divide they arise.