UNFCCC Accord de Paris

[seer]

Thats because you have a simplistic understanding of the prioblem. Each country is different, each have different obstacles to overcome in reducing emissions. China and India, unlike the U.S., are still undeveloped countries and don't have the ability to reduce emmissions as quickly as the U.S. can. China's Co2 emissions, unlike that of the U.S., are not expected to peak until 2020, but in the meantime the rate of emissions are on the decrease due to their efforts in that regard. They, i.e. China and India, are far more dependent on fossil fuels than the U.S. is, just like many other undeveloped countries are, so you can't expect the same rates of reduction in those and other countries as in the U.S. In other words, your argument that the U.S. is doing their part while other countries aren't is a simplistic understanding of whats going on.

That is fine Jim, but I'm concerned about your suggestion that the American tax payer should somehow flip the bill for this. We already have a crushing debt!

[One Bad Pig]

He'll be in jail.

You forgot to add "probably."

[Meh Gerbil]

You forgot to add "probably."

You seem to be suggesting that JimL would make a poor unbiased judge.
I'll cross him off the list as a potential judge for the 2017 TWEB Chili Cook-off.

[One Bad Pig]

You seem to be suggesting that JimL would make a poor unbiased judge.
I'll cross him off the list as a potential judge for the 2017 TWEB Chili Cook-off.

Perhaps he would, but I was responding to his close associate Tassman.

[JimL]

That is fine Jim, but I'm concerned about your suggestion that the American tax payer should somehow flip the bill for this. We already have a crushing debt!

The U.S. is not footing the bill alone, but seeing that we are one of the biggest contributors to the Co2 levels, as well as the biggest benefactors of fossil fuel use, then it is only fair that we take the lead in aiding the rest of the undeveloped world to switch to renewables in order that together we have a chance of staving off the the effects of climate change. Did you know that the Presidents tax reform bill would give a $52 billion dollar tax cut to the Walton family alone? Thats what you'll be footing the bill for, and unlike the taxes going into reducing the green house effect, that $52 billion to one family isn't going to do you, or the country, much good at all.

[seer]

The U.S. is not footing the bill alone, but seeing that we are one of the biggest contributors to the Co2 levels, as well as the biggest benefactors of fossil fuel use, then it is only fair that we take the lead in aiding the rest of the undeveloped world to switch to renewables in order that together we have a chance of staving off the the effects of climate change. Did you know that the Presidents tax reform bill would give a $52 billion dollar tax cut to the Walton family alone? Thats what you'll be footing the bill for, and unlike the taxes going into reducing the green house effect, that $52 billion to one family isn't going to do you, or the country, much good at all.

Nonsense Jim, it is not fair. We have already given enough, Western and Eastern Europe are free today from Nazism and Communism because of our monetary efforts. And I have no idea what you mean about the Walton family. People like you won't be happy until we look like Venezuela, just keep taxing companies right out of the country.

[Charles]

Nonsense Jim, it is not fair. We have already given enough, Western and Eastern Europe are free today from Nazism and Communism because of our monetary efforts. And I have no idea what you mean about the Walton family. People like you won't be happy until we look like Venezuela, just keep taxing companies right out of the country.

I usually don't find much positive to say about Russia. But they actually did help to fight Nazism. Should they have a special treatment because of that? They can pollute a little more? How would dropping the a-bombs over Japan count in this context. Can you pollute a little more or less based on that....?

[seer]

I usually don't find much positive to say about Russia. But they actually did help to fight Nazism. Should they have a special treatment because of that? They can pollute a little more? How would dropping the a-bombs over Japan count in this context. Can you pollute a little more or less based on that....?

No Charles, first Russia could not have survived the early part of the war without lend lease from the US. And I'm not saying we get to pollute more, we already have made great reductions in our Co2 levels. Actually as I linked in the other thread more than just about any other country. What I'm questioning is this arbitrary idea of fairness. Who gets to decide that, what do you take into consideration, do we get to take into consideration the fact that Europe is free today largely because of us? Actually protecting and delivering them from Russia? And the Co2 created in that effort? Do we get to include the billions we spent on AIDS in Africa? And other humanitarian causes? And why not? Do we as American tax payers get take into consideration our 20 trillion debt? What about fairness to our hard working citizens?

[Charles]

No Charles, first Russia could not have survived the early part of the war without lend lease from the US. And I'm not saying we get to pollute more, we already have made great reductions in our Co2 levels. Actually as I linked in the other thread more than just about any other country. What I'm questioning is this arbitrary idea of fairness. Who gets to decide that, what do you take into consideration, do we get to take into consideration the fact that Europe is free today largely because of us? And the Co2 created in that effort? Do we get to include the billions we spent on AIDS in Africa? And other humanitarian causes? And why not? Do we as American tax payers get take into consideration our 20 trillion debt? What about fairness to our hard working citizens?

I think you seem to have your own arbitrary idea of farines which just differs but is equally as arbitrary.

So you claim that Russia did not play a role in fighting Nazism... Interesting.

[Meh Gerbil]

So you claim that Russia did not play a role in fighting Nazism... Interesting.

At the start of WWII Russia was an ally of Nazi Germany.

- Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German...ssia_relations

Things didn't change until Germany invaded Russia.
That is when Russia began to cozy up to the West.

[rogue06]

At the start of WWII Russia was an ally of Nazi Germany.

- Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German...ssia_relations

Things didn't change until Germany invaded Russia.
That is when Russia began to cozy up to the West.

And as seer noted if it weren't for all of the stuff the West (primarily us) sent them the Nazis would have very likely rolled over them. As I noted in a different discussion last October:

You appear to be woefully ignorant of such things as the Lend-Lease Act. According to Section IIIB of the 1946 U.S. War Department (predecessor to the Defense Department) document Lend-Lease Shipments: World War II we sent the Soviets 12,000 armored vehicles (including 7000 tanks). Other documents indicate that we also supplied them with over 400,000 jeeps and trucks and 11,400 aircraft as well as more than 4.47 million tons of food.

According to Russia's Life-Saver: Lend-Lease Aid to the U.S.S.R. in World War II, by the retired professor of international relations at the New York University Albert Loren Weeks (who actually was intimately involved in the Lend-Lease program being in the Soviet Union several times during the war) we provided them with over 13,300 combat vehicles, 427,000 trucks, 35,000 motorcycles along with 2.6 million tons of fuel to keep them going. We also supplied them with nearly 2000 steam locomotives and over 10,000 freight cars of various types (Weeks estimates that was nearly 93% of the Soviet's wartime production of railroad equipment).

The historian T. H. Vail Motter, who was chief of the Middle East section of the Army's historical division from 1944 to 1951, calculated that just through the Persian Corridor (one of the five supply routes through which 27% of the material flowed) were enough to equip and maintain 60 combat divisions.

In an interview Russian historian Oleg Budnitsky where he notes how important the assistance from the West was to the Soviet war effort

Source: Russian historian: Importance of Lend-Lease cannot be overestimated

These supplies were critical in some key areas. For example, in the beginning of 1942, Western tanks fully replenished Soviet losses, and exceeded them by three times. About 15 percent of the aircraft used by Soviet air forces were supplied by Allies, including the Airacobra fighter and Boston bomber. The Allies supplied 15,000 state-of-the-art machines at that time; for example, famous Soviet ace Alexander Pokryshkin flew Airacobra, as did the rest of his squadron. He shot down 59 enemy aircraft, and 48 of them were thanks to American military equipment.


Source

© Copyright Original Source

Weeks quotes another noted Russian historian, Boris Vadimovich Sokolov, in his book

Source: Russia's Life-Saver: Lend-Lease Aid to the U.S.S.R. in World War II

On the whole the following conclusion can be drawn: that without these Western shipments under Lend-Lease the Soviet Union not only would not have been able to win the Great Patriotic War, it would not have been able even to oppose the German invaders, since it could not itself produce sufficient quantities of arms and military equipment or adequate supplies of fuel and ammunition. The Soviet authorities were well aware of this dependency on Lend-Lease.

© Copyright Original Source

Documents available after the fall of the Soviet Union reveal how crucial a role such supplies played in the Battle of Moscow since Russian forces had been severely depleted of supplies and arms at that time.

[Charles]

At the start of WWII Russia was an ally of Nazi Germany.

- Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German...ssia_relations

Things didn't change until Germany invaded Russia.
That is when Russia began to cozy up to the West.

I knew. But still Russian soldiers fought and died in this fight.

[JimL]

Nonsense Jim, it is not fair. We have already given enough, Western and Eastern Europe are free today from Nazism and Communism because of our monetary efforts. And I have no idea what you mean about the Walton family. People like you won't be happy until we look like Venezuela, just keep taxing companies right out of the country.

Okay, so as I asked you before, whats your plan to bring all the countries of the world together to participate in saving the planet?

Regarding the Walton family, the owners of WallMart, the Presidents tax reform bill will give the Waltons a $52 billion dollar tax cut. They're doing well enough already don't you think? And you're concerned about a few of your dollars going to save the planet? Your priorities are whacked seer!

[seer]

I think you seem to have your own arbitrary idea of farines which just differs but is equally as arbitrary.

No Charles, I'm saying that there are too many variables, what can or should be taken into consideration, or not. You just can not quantify this.

So you claim that Russia did not play a role in fighting Nazism... Interesting.

That is not what I said at all!

[seer]

Okay, so as I asked you before, whats your plan to bring all the countries of the world together to participate in saving the planet?

I have no plan, let each country look to its own responsibility. And you are not saving the planet Jim, you are just slowing the warming - by very little actually. Stop with the god complex...

Regarding the Walton family, the owners of WallMart, the Presidents tax reform bill will give the Waltons a $52 billion dollar tax cut. They're doing well enough already don't you think? And you're concerned about a few of your dollars going to save the planet? Your priorities are whacked seer!

I have no idea if that is true or not - and my priority is a robust economy, more and better jobs.