Avoiding a derail: an answer to Ronson's question

[Cow Poke]

Have to agree here. He threw a fit and stole a bunch of documents when he didn't get his way in the election. That his cultists followers took his fit and Q-Anon posts as a signal to riot, is on them, not on the sore loser.

What a... very... interesting.... um... perspective! (trying to figure out what it is with which I would disagree here, with the note that I still don't get all this Q-Anon stuff, but that's on me)

[Ronson]

What a... very... interesting.... um... perspective! (trying to figure out what it is with which I would disagree here, with the note that I still don't get all this Q-Anon stuff, but that's on me)

Unfortunately, I do know one QAnon subscriber, and that's my hare-brained brother. I'll be having a normal conversation with him and he'll launch into some creepy commentary about how rich elitists are having children kidnapped so they can abuse, torture and kill them. When I ask him what evidence he has to support this, he just says that they are evil and bored and this is how they get their kicks (which obviously is not evidence). He claims they support the porous southern border because that's how they get their victims without getting on the radar. He connects a lot of this in with Jeffrey Epstein and says this is why his client list hasn't been divulged and why he was murdered in jail.

I can agree about suspicious events without concocting elaborate illogical conspiracy theories. My bro can't.

[Cow Poke]

You unwittingly just stated the problem.

that's because it WASN'T a hearing. It was a carefully produced (by a hollywood producer no less) drama created with a pre-determined script and a plotline.

AND... if you really have a solid case, you are careful NOT to include outrageous false accusations that are demonstrably false, like the "bludgeoned to death with a fire extinguisher" lie.

But, hey, it was a lie that got a lot of mileage from the Democrat machine...

The left attacks Kari Lake with a big lie about the Jan. 6 riot

Opinion: It's hard to claim moral authority when an ad uses a bereaved mother to spread a lie about Kari Lake and the attack on the U.S. Capitol.

One feels sympathy for anyone who outlives their own child. Gladys Sicknick suffered a great tragedy when her son, U.S. Capitol police officer Brian Sicknick, died following the Jan. 6, 2021, riot at the U.S. Capitol.

One should feel only contempt for political operatives who exploited this bereaved mother, packaged her grief in a lie and used it to attack Arizona gubernatorial candidate Kari Lake.

The liberals who play this game surrender all moral authority to call out conservatives on their lies, such as the now thoroughly debunked accusation that Democrats stole the 2020 presidential election.

Note this is not an opinion sympathetic to Republicans, as it outright calls the "Democrats stole the election" a lie, as well.

Brian Sicknick died of natural causes

But in April 2021, the chief medical examiner for the District of Columbia reported that Brian D. Sicknick “suffered two strokes and died of natural causes a day after he confronted rioters,” as reported by the Washington Post.

Medical Examiner Francisco J. Diaz told The Post he found no evidence that Sicknick suffered an allergic reaction to chemical irritants or any internal or external injuries.

Sicknick “suffered two strokes at the base of the brain stem caused by a clot in an artery that supplies blood to that area of the body,” The Post reported. Diaz would not say if Sicknick had a preexisting medical condition, citing privacy laws.

Initially, the NY Times reported...

A United States Capitol Police officer died on Thursday night from injuries sustained “while physically engaging” with pro-Trump rioters who descended on the U.S. Capitol the day before, the fifth fatality linked to the chaos that engulfed the nation’s capital on Wednesday, according to the authorities.

To their credit, that very same article had to be updated with the lead...

Update Feb. 12, 2021: New information has emerged regarding the death of the Capitol Police officer Brian Sicknick that questions the initial cause of his death provided by officials close to the Capitol Police.

FACT is that, as the chief medical examiner reported - he died of natural causes, yet was used as a photo op by the Democrats, still claiming he was "Slain" in the Capitol Riots....

Lawmakers Honor Slain Capitol Police Officer Brian Sicknick In Rotunda

Brian Sicknick, the slain U.S. Capitol Police officer who was given the rare distinction of lying in honor in the Capitol Rotunda, received a final tribute from lawmakers Wednesday. President Biden and first lady Jill Biden joined Sicknick's family members and colleagues from the Capitol Police in a period of visitation on Tuesday night.

Sicknick, 42, died from injuries he sustained fending off members of the mob that breached the Capitol complex on Jan. 6.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer delivered remarks at a ceremony Wednesday morning, praising him as a "patriot" and someone who possessed "profound inner strength."

lie.jpg
As I have stated, it's understandable that "first reports from the field are often wrong", but even after they KNEW it was a lie, they kept pushing it to raise money, for photo ops, and to prosecute Trump.

[Mountain Man]

You unwittingly just stated the problem.

that's because it WASN'T a hearing. It was a carefully produced (by a hollywood producer no less) drama created with a pre-determined script and a plotline.

jan-6-committee-cheney-thompson-teleprompter-getty-640x335.jpg
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2...-teleprompter/

[Cow Poke]

Unfortunately, I do know one QAnon subscriber, and that's my hare-brained brother. I'll be having a normal conversation with him and he'll launch into some creepy commentary about how rich elitists are having children kidnapped so they can abuse, torture and kill them. When I ask him what evidence he has to support this, he just says that they are evil and bored and this is how they get their kicks (which obviously is not evidence). He claims they support the porous southern border because that's how they get their victims without getting on the radar. He connects a lot of this in with Jeffrey Epstein and says this is why his client list hasn't been divulged and why he was murdered in jail.

I can agree about suspicious events without concocting elaborate illogical conspiracy theories. My bro can't.

On a totally different subject, I had a good friend who was a CPA who was a 'normal good Christian' in every sense of the word, intelligent, successful.... but he had this bug up his butt about the Moon Landings. He was absolutely convinced it was all a hoax, and had all kinds of "proof" in his office that anybody with any objectivity at all would recognize as circumstantial at best. It became clear it wasn't worth anybody's effort to argue against him on this.

[Mountain Man]

AND... if you really have a solid case, you are careful NOT to include outrageous false accusations that are demonstrably false, like the "bludgeoned to death with a fire extinguisher" lie.

Or the "Trump physically fought with his security detail and tried to seize control of the presidential limo when they wouldn't drive him to the Capitol" lie.

[Ronson]

On a totally different subject, I had a good friend who was a CPA who was a 'normal good Christian' in every sense of the word, intelligent, successful.... but he had this bug up his butt about the Moon Landings. He was absolutely convinced it was all a hoax, and had all kinds of "proof" in his office that anybody with any objectivity at all would recognize as circumstantial at best. It became clear it wasn't worth anybody's effort to argue against him on this.

AND ... a supervisor I had back in the 1990s. A very intelligent guy; I was impressed with his diagnostic skills. But he was convinced that AIDS was created by shadowy whites in government in an attempt to kill off inner-city blacks. When I challenged him on that, he'd run off in all directions, name dropping people I'd never heard of (except for Louis Farrakhan). He went completely emotional on the subject and couldn't be reasoned with, so I gave up.

[Cow Poke]

Or the "Trump physically fought with his security detail and tried to seize control of the presidential limo when they wouldn't drive him to the Capitol" lie.

Again, if you have a solid case, there is no need to fabricate, doctor, invent or distort evidence, or to use OUTRIGHT LIES to try to make your case.

[Cow Poke]

AND ... a supervisor I had back in the 1990s. A very intelligent guy; I was impressed with his diagnostic skills. But he was convinced that AIDS was created by shadowy whites in government in an attempt to kill off inner-city blacks. When I challenged him on that, he'd run off in all directions, name dropping people I'd never heard of (except for Louis Farrakhan). He went completely emotional on the subject and couldn't be reasoned with, so I gave up.

It's easy to get sucked in, and for confirmation bias to "seal the deal". I have a few very good close friends "from the opposite side of the aisle" who will allow me to sit with them and run my latest possible conspiracy theory by them. The most recent was the Social Emotional Learning thing. When they were trying to show me how SEL is actually a "good thing", we were all surprised that the ISD removed any mention of SEL from their public facing website after I raised the issue at a school board meeting.

If it's such a good thing, why hide it when attention was called to it?

Now, even they are suspicious, though not quite willing to admit SEL is "bad".

[Ronson]

It's easy to get sucked in, and for confirmation bias to "seal the deal". I have a few very good close friends "from the opposite side of the aisle" who will allow me to sit with them and run my latest possible conspiracy theory by them. The most recent was the Social Emotional Learning thing. When they were trying to show me how SEL is actually a "good thing", we were all surprised that the ISD removed any mention of SEL from their public facing website after I raised the issue at a school board meeting.

If it's such a good thing, why hide it when attention was called to it?

Now, even they are suspicious, though not quite willing to admit SEL is "bad".

We need a thread on rating conspiracy theories. A couple are interesting - some are ridiculous.

[Cow Poke]

We need a thread on rating conspiracy theories. A couple are interesting - some are ridiculous.

One of my favorite observations is that lack of proof of a conspiracy is proof that it's true!

[Cow Poke]

You unwittingly just stated the problem.

that's because it WASN'T a hearing. It was a carefully produced (by a hollywood producer no less) drama created with a pre-determined script and a plotline.

AND there was the steaming load of horsie-poo that.....

These Are the People Who Died in Connection With the Capitol Riot

A bipartisan Senate report found that at least seven people had lost their lives in connection with the Jan. 6 attack.

It's behind a paywall, so I can't read the article, but it has been debunked that ANY of these deaths (except the unarmed woman killed by a Capitol Police Officer) were a direct result of the riot.

Lies, proven lies, repeated lies --- to convict Trump and raise money for the Crooked Democrats.

But they had every confidence that the media would back them up, and people would buy into this crap with a vengeance.

[Gondwanaland]

AND there was the steaming load of horsie-poo that.....

These Are the People Who Died in Connection With the Capitol Riot

A bipartisan Senate report found that at least seven people had lost their lives in connection with the Jan. 6 attack.

It's behind a paywall, so I can't read the article, but it has been debunked that ANY of these deaths (except the unarmed woman killed by a Capitol Police Officer) were a direct result of the riot.

Lies, proven lies, repeated lies --- to convict Trump and raise money for the Crooked Democrats.

But they had every confidence that the media would back them up, and people would buy into this crap with a vengeance.

Yep, it never fails when I see an article on Jan 6th that the riots caused deaths. There WERE several deaths that day, but only one directly due to the riots (for which the officer who shot the unarmed woman will never be charged). All other deaths thad day were from natural causes (IIRC a heart attack, an aneurysm, and some sort of overdose, occurred in the general area of the rally or the later riot)

[oxmixmudd]

1. trump fired bannon and stone ages ago.
2. Them saying "that was the plan" doesn't mean that was the plan or that trump had anything to do with it.
3. The democrats were also preparing to say the election was stole and set up the idea ahead of time. That doesn't mean the democrats were planning an insurrection. It's just dumb partisan nonsense.

What actually happened:

Trump believed the election was stolen and said so. Many of his followers believed him and a small # of them rioted, like liberals have been doing for years when they don't get their way. Liberals, who hate Trump and would use any means available to throw him in prison for purely partisan reasons, have done everything possible to pretend that's some sort of crime, like in North Korea.

Trump actively told his followers to go home and not do anything. You can spin it however you want but the fact is that you people are in fact the tyrants you claim Trump is.

Darth Executor capsulized my thoughts on all this quite well.

Like the Mueller investigation, the J6 investigation was an attempt to confirm a belief, and not any attempt to find the truth. Bannon expressed his opinions - long after he was fired. The same with Stone "who told associates" his opinions.

If J6 was a planned insurrection, it was the most ridiculous clown party in history. No gun battles, no casualties (except that one woman climbing through a window), and complete chaos that one would expect to find in a riot. It's just another case of Trump: Evil Genius and Trump: Complete Idiot. The Left alternates between these two Hollywood shows and finds no conflict between them. They like to say he's so brilliant that he uses "dog whistles" to make his zombies obey, but he's so stupid that he should have known this haphazard "insurrection" wouldn't go anywhere.

He's not trying to sell a lie. Trump believes he won in 2020. Every time my brother sends me a link to some appearance Trump has made since then, he whines about how he was robbed. This whole bit about knowing it was a lie is Leftists piling on. "It's not enough we charge Trump with insurrection! But he's a liar too! And he kicks puppies!"

If these partisan hacks actually dug up emails or phone conversations or some solid evidence that Trump or his subordinates (not opinions of people fired years earlier) asked them to attack the Capitol and prevent the transfer of power, or to take and occupy buildings, or just SOMETHING that would tie in with this, then they'd have a case. But this is all political fodder. These people hate Trump with every fiber of their beings. And I get it - he's not a likeable character. He's undisciplined, unfiltered, uncouth, and conceited beyond belief. But mainly he pursued policies that frustrated the entrenched uni-party, and is why they want to see him locked up.

I'll try to have more later today, but one of the reasons I posted the list of witnesses in the OP was to show that the people who gave the factual information in this report were for the most part people that were part of the administration, people that were FOR Trump, not against him, at least until what he did after the election, Jan 5 and beyond. Further, the evidence shows this was in fact a planned attempt to somehow stop the certification of the election results. Trump pursued several different vectors, but in the end, they were all directed at the same goal. Prevent the election results from being accepted.

Ronson, both you and Darth E somehow think Trump actually believes he won. I think the evidence shows that he was in fact told many times by many sources that was not the case.

So a question I have for you is this. Supposing you are right and Donald Trump chose to believe what every single legitimate counselor around him told him was not true and that he then acted on his own internal sense he simply could not have lost. To the point of trying to get Pence to violate his oath of office. Of trying to get Senators and Congressmean - even Military Generals, to violate their oaths of office. To the point of enjoying it when 'his people' planned and executed an attack on the capitol on his behalf. To the point he could never actually condemn their actions.

Are you really saying those things are after all OK, or that they don't still rise to insurrection? Assuming he actually does believe his own lie, does that make any difference at all?

[Cow Poke]

Yep, it never fails when I see an article on Jan 6th that the riots caused deaths. There WERE several deaths that day, but only one directly due to the riots (for which the officer who shot the unarmed woman will never be charged). All other deaths thad day were from natural causes (IIRC a heart attack, an aneurysm, and some sort of overdose, occurred in the general area of the rally or the later riot)

Not only was the officer not charged, but he was made a hero, and another source of campaign cash. That's how absolutely corrupt the Democrats have been in this.

AND, I think it's worth noting - the Capitol Police were more like tour guides than street cops. There were several suicides in the days and months following the riots, because officers actually encountered scary "real police" situations to which they were not in any way accustomed. In many cases, "Capitol Police" jobs were handed out like many other 'rewards for loyalty'. It became painfully obvious that the Capitol Police were never trained for anything like defending the Capitol from active protests.

An actual street cop would NEVER have handled his duty weapon like the officer who shot the unarmed woman - having left his duty weapon in a restroom on more than one occasion, handling it in a very dangerous manner putting the lives of his protectees in jeopardy prior to his very nervously poking in and out of cover before shooting the unarmed woman. For this - he is declared a hero.