UK woman arrested for silently praying across from abortion clinic

[eider]

Actually, there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with standing there across the street as long as you aren't protesting -- or praying.

The cop asked if she was praying. That was reason enough to arrest her. And that was why he arrested her.

Look, some venues have suffered from all kinds of interference, trouble, harassment and criminal activity from various groups. And so Orders with limits are set to reduce such troubles.

A person with a previous history of warnings, cautions or arrests found within such limits is going to get attention for police. I used to train security staff to patrol different kinds of premises where such troubles occurred, What do you think about groups of people who gather outside meat processing plants, or other such venues?

It wouldn't take me too long to search out/find a group of venues that you might support such protection orders for, I think.

You just don't like abortion clinics. True?

We don't like them either, most of us, but we don't support the harassment or trouble that can be heaped upon visitors, employees etc of such places.

[eider]

Perhaps you were unaware of the little incident where they were commanded to stop preaching, and they rebelled?

Scripture Verse: Acts 4

18 So they called them and charged them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19 But Peter and John answered them, Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you rather than to God, you must judge, 20 for we cannot but speak of what we have seen and heard.”

© Copyright Original Source

Let's try another version of that...

Scripture Verse: Acts 4

18 So they called them and charged them not to pray at all - even in their own heads. 19 But Peter and John answered them, Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you rather than to God, you must judge, 20 for we cannot but pray for the things about which we are concerned.”

© Copyright Original Source

That was easy!

As already mentioned, the contradictions are numerous. You've just shown how true that is.

[eider]

Some of the difficulties that abortion clinics have had here, and how support for protection orders has grown.


Reading Borough Council approves protestor buffer zone for ...

https://www.bbc.co.uk › uk-england-berkshire-63302256
19 Oct 2022 — The motion was approved as plans to enforce buffer zones around abortion clinics in England and Wales were backed by MPs on Tuesday.
Clinic harassment and safe access zone briefing

https://bills.parliament.uk › Documents
PDF
'Clinic harassment' describes activity used by anti-abortion groups across the UK to deter or prevent women from accessing abortion care. Such harassment takes ...
How we won the UK's first-ever buffer zone around an ...

https://www.opendemocracy.net › how-we-won-the-uks...
9 Jun 2021 — According to the British Pregnancy Advisory Service (BPAS), since 2018 there's been an anti-abortion presence at 42 clinics across England ...
Abortion buffer zone 'victory': the 10-year battle to protect the ...

https://www.standard.co.uk › insider › abortion-buffer-...
19 Oct 2022 — And “they” are anti-choice, anti-abortion protesters who, in just two weeks in July, had set themselves up outside the clinic four times, ...

[Diogenes]

You cannot be that slow, Diogenes! The woman could be dancing on the pavement 'Just outside the limits set', but if inside the limits set, that same woman could be arrested, while dancing.
This does not admit that the reason for her arrest would be dancing.

Thought being criminalised within a certain area is still criminalising thought.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

You must have replied while I was editing I edited it to ask who you are getting this from and I want citations.

I was tempted to write that "want will be your master".

However, it is still the festive season, the weather is not overly pleasant, and I am feeling generous.

I make no apologies for any issues with fonts in the quotations as everything was typed in Word.

The following is from Koch's The Rediscovery of the Apocalyptic [trans M. Kohl]; London, 1972 and is cited in Paolo Sacchi's Jewish Apocalyptic and its History [trans by William J. Short OFM ] in Journal for the Study of the Pseudepigrapha Supplement Series 20. Sheffield University Press, 199 [p.38]:

If we are to arrive at a historical perception of the background against which apocalyptic ideas grew up, as well as a serviceable and generally applicable concept of apocalyptic, we must start from the writings which were composed in Hebrew or Aramaic, or in which, at least, the Hebrew or Aramaic spirit is dominant. To this group belong first and foremost the book of Daniel, I Enoch, II Baruch, IV Ezra, the Apocalypse of Abraham, and the book of Revelation, with its Semitic tendencies...We can only ascertain what is apocalyptic about these writings if characteristics common to the type can be demonstrated.

From Sacchi's own text [pp. 66-67]:

Another book that was certainly influenced by the author of the Book of the Watchers is Daniel. Here some typical elements of the apocalyptic author are manifestly present, both in form and substance. The author of Daniel also expresses his conviction through the narration of visions. He also gives great importance to the 'in-between world'. One thinks of the figure of the Son of Man, who will govern the kingdom of God on earth. The very bold formulation of Jubilees, 'God will come to earth' to govern it, is thus nuanced by the introduction of the mediator, who permits a better understanding of divine transcendence. There are even found in Daniel two names of archangels: Gabriel and Michael, who is charged to protect Israel [12.1] [different from what is said in Jubilees, where only God protects Israel: cf. 15.31-32].

[...]

Daniel absorbed the thought of apocalyptic within the limits allowed by its tradition, but overall it is strongly tied to the official tradition: it is not by chance that it is part of every canon. Moses and the Law are clearly present in its thought [9.13]; all the prayer of ch. 9 fits perfectly within the Deuteronomist tradition and that of the books of Ezra and Nehemiah.With Daniel apocalyptic becomes historical, or at least alongside a decidedly cosmic apocalyptic a historical apocalyptic is born. In this sense Schmithals is right to note that the interest of the (classical) apocalypses is focused essentially on history.

From Vol Two of the Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary entry on The Book of Daniel [John H Collins]

Apart from the book that bears his name, Daniel does not appear as a historical personality of the exilic period in any biblical book. The name occurs twice in Ezekiel, one time in conjunction with Noah and Job [14:14] and once as a prototype of wisdom [Ezek 28:3: are you wiser than Daniel?] Neither passage can have the biblical Daniel stories in mind, but it may be significant that the name was associated with a legendary wise man in the exilic period. The name Dnil is also attached to a legendary figure at Ugarit, in the Aqhat legend, where he is,among other things, a judge.[The name means, most probably―my judge is God or possibly―judge of God] Jub. 4:20 Daniel is the uncle of Enoch. The fact that the name Daniel was widely associated with a legendary hero may raise some doubts about the historicity of the biblical figure.

Quite apart from the historicity of the figure of Daniel the authenticity of the book had already been questioned by the 3rd century Neoplatonist philosopher Porphyry. We are informed by Jerome that "Porphyry wrote his twelfth book against the prophecy of Daniel denying that it was composed by the person to whom it is ascribed in its title, but rather by some individual living in Judaea at the time of that Antiochus who was surnamed Epiphanes; he further alleged that Daniel "did not foretell the future so much as he related the past... in as much as he would not have foreknown the future". Porphyry's insight was resisted for well over a millennium but its validity has been widely acknowledged by modern critics, beginning in the 18th century... Daniel refers to no events later than the time of Epiphanes, and evidently expected the end of history shortly thereafter. Such preoccupation with the Maccabean period is most easily explained if the author lived at that time. The references to the Babylonian period, in contrast, are notoriously confused.

From Collin's own work on Daniel; A commentary on the Book of Daniel, Fortress Press, 1993 [pp.25-26]

After Porphyry, the authenticity of Daniel remained unchallenged down to the seventeenth century, when Uriel da Costa (Gabriel Acosta) ascribed the book to the Pharisees because of its belief in resurrection. In the eighteenth century, Porphyry's line ofargument was taken up by the English Deist Anthony Collins and later by the German Corrodi, and it was incorporated into the early nineteenth-century commentaries of Bertholdt and von Lengerke. Heated polemic raged throughout the nineteenth century. The conservative view of the issue was epitomized in the famous utterance of E. B. Pusey: "The book of Daniel is especially fitted to be a battle-ground between faith and unbelief. It admits of no half-way measures. It is either Divine or an imposture.... The writer, were he not Daniel, must have lied on a most frightful scale” the end of the nineteenth century, however, there was an established consensus in favour of the Maccabean dating, reflected in the commentaries of Marti, Behrmann, Bevan, and Driver, although the conservative defence of Danielic authenticity continues to the present. Conservatives have often argued that the critical position rests on a dogmatic, rationalistic denial of the possibility of predictive prophecy. For the critical scholar, however, the issue is one of probability. That Daniel's predictions have particular relevance to the time of Antiochus Epiphanes is not in dispute. This was recognized already by Josephus and Jerome granted that events predicted of the Antichrist in Daniel 11 were prefigured under Epiphanes. There is no apparent reason, however, why a prophet of the sixth century should focus minute attention on the events of the second century. Moreover, the references to Hellenistic history in chap. 11 are essentially accurate, whereas those to the Babylonian and Persian periods in the earlier chapters are notoriously confused. A further consideration, to which we will return in connection with the genre of Daniel, is the fact that pseudonymity and ex eventu prophecy are well known conventions of apocalyptic literature and are characteristic of other Jewish writings of the Hellenistic period. In view of these considerations, the balance of probability is overwhelmingly in favour of a Maccabean date, at least for the revelations of chapter’s 7-12, which clearly have their focus in that period.

As you may be aware, Porphyry's works were destroyed on the orders of [initially Constantine] and again by Theodosius II.

From the entry on the Book of Daniel in HarperCollins Bible Dictionary [ed: Paul J Achtemeir]

Chaps. 1-6 are stories set at the Babylonian and Persian courts, narrated in the third person. Chapterss. 7-12 are apocalyptic revelations, narrated in the first person. The Greek translations include certain additions accepted as canonical by the Roman Catholic church: the Prayer of Azariah and the Song of the Three Children in chapter 3 and the stories of Susanna and Bel and the Dragon in additional chapters. Also, the oldest Greek translation has a text that differs greatly from the Aramaic in chapters 4-6, and that may be closer to the original in some respects. Even within the twelve chapters of Daniel in the Hebrew Bible there are signs of composite authorship. l: l; 2:4a and chapters 8-12 are in Hebrew; and 2:4b-7:28 is in Aramaic. The form of the text in the Hebrew Bible, part Hebrew and part Aramaic, is supported now by fragments of the book found among the Dead Sea Scrolls.

The stories in Daniel 1-6 bristle with historical problems. Chapter. 4 tells of the transformation of Nebuchadnezzar into a beast. This story seems to have its origin in an episode in the life of Nabonidus, the last Babylonian king. A variant of the tradition has been found in the "Prayer of Nabonidus" among the Dead Sea Scrolls. Chapter. 5 represents Belshazzar as king of Babylon at the time of its destruction, although he was never actually king. Chapter. 6 speaks of a wholly unhistorical Darius the Mede, who is said to have been the conqueror of Babylon. Darius was the name of several later Persian monarchs. In view of these problems, the stories in chapters 1-6 must have been written a considerable time after the Babylonian exile.

The apocalyptic section of the book, chapters 7-12, can be dated more precisely. Chapter 11 contains a lengthy prophecy of history communicated to Daniel by an angel. No names are mentioned, but persons and events can easily be identified down to Antiochus IV Epiphanes of Syria and his persecution of the Jews, which began in 168 BCE. The prophecy goes on to predict, incorrectly, that the king would die in the land of Israel. We must infer that the accurate "prophecy" was written after the fact and that the actual time of composition was during the persecution, but prior to the king's death in 164 BCE. The persecution is also the focal point of the other apocalyptic revelations in chapters 7-12. By contrast, there is no clear allusion to it in chapters 1-6.

The composition of the book, then, can be reconstructed as follows: the Aramaic stories were traditional tales that probably took shape in the third century BCE. Chapter. 7 was added in Aramaic after the outbreak of the persecution. Chapters 8-12 were then added in Hebrew, perhaps for nationalistic reasons. Chapter 1 was either translated from the Aramaic or composed in Hebrew as an introduction to the book.

Scholarly opinions vary on the details of this reconstruction, but there is a consensus on its main outline. Many conservative Christians, however, continue to defend the view that the whole book was composed in the sixth century BCE and that Daniel was a historical person.

As the last comment in that final quote illustrates there are those of a more conservative persuasion within the Christian fraternity who continue to argue in the face of all evidence to the contrary, that this is a work dating from the seventh century BCE.

I am also interested in your answer to Diogenes question

In what respect?

as well as your prof that Julius Caesar and the other Caesars are historical figures.

Precisely how many "other Caesars" do you have in mind?

Are you concerned only with the Julio-Claudian dynasty? Or do you wish to go through the Flavians, the Nerva-Antonines, the Severans, and right up to Romulus Augustulus via Diocletian and the tetrarchy, not forgetting Constantine? Then of course there are those later "Caesars" in the eastern empire who, despite speaking Greek, regarded themselves as Romans.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

By those Christians and Jews recognize as hysterical figures.

How many Jewish and Christian academics do you wish to consider "hysterical"?

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Daniel is still a prominent figure in Judaism and Christianity and symbol of defiance to earthly powers and devotion to God. Daniel being a historical figure or not is immaterial to his relevance. If you wish to critique the historicity of a figure, I would suggest starting with Hypatia of Alexandria.

Why?

I fail to see any connection between a literary figure in a Jewish apocalyptic text and an established historical individual.

What next? A "critique" of Jean Valjean perhaps?

[Cow Poke]

As already mentioned, the contradictions are numerous. You've just shown how true that is.

What contradictions? One can be "subject to authority", fully recognizing the consequences of disobedience, willing to take the consequences, and still be "subject to authority".

Man is to obey government, but when government defies God, man can choose to obey God, and be subject to whatever the penalties of government may be.

[rogue06]

Daniel is not considered to be a historical figure.

And yet Josephus writes of where his body was then entombed.

[rogue06]

Some of the difficulties that abortion clinics have had here, and how support for protection orders has grown.


Reading Borough Council approves protestor buffer zone for ...

https://www.bbc.co.uk › uk-england-berkshire-63302256
19 Oct 2022 — The motion was approved as plans to enforce buffer zones around abortion clinics in England and Wales were backed by MPs on Tuesday.
Clinic harassment and safe access zone briefing

https://bills.parliament.uk › Documents
PDF
'Clinic harassment' describes activity used by anti-abortion groups across the UK to deter or prevent women from accessing abortion care. Such harassment takes ...
How we won the UK's first-ever buffer zone around an ...

https://www.opendemocracy.net › how-we-won-the-uks...
9 Jun 2021 — According to the British Pregnancy Advisory Service (BPAS), since 2018 there's been an anti-abortion presence at 42 clinics across England ...
Abortion buffer zone 'victory': the 10-year battle to protect the ...

https://www.standard.co.uk › insider › abortion-buffer-...
19 Oct 2022 — And “they” are anti-choice, anti-abortion protesters who, in just two weeks in July, had set themselves up outside the clinic four times, ...

All well and good and totally irrelevant to the case at hand.

[rogue06]

Look, some venues have suffered from all kinds of interference, trouble, harassment and criminal activity from various groups. And so Orders with limits are set to reduce such troubles.

A person with a previous history of warnings, cautions or arrests found within such limits is going to get attention for police. I used to train security staff to patrol different kinds of premises where such troubles occurred, What do you think about groups of people who gather outside meat processing plants, or other such venues?

It wouldn't take me too long to search out/find a group of venues that you might support such protection orders for, I think.

You just don't like abortion clinics. True?

We don't like them either, most of us, but we don't support the harassment or trouble that can be heaped upon visitors, employees etc of such places.

All of that is well and good but entirely irrelevant to what this woman was doing. Standing quietly praying silently.

You are effectively arguing that she should be arrested for doing nothing because of what others did in the past.

[Cow Poke]

I think this is a classic case where there was far more emphasis on the letter of the law rather than the spirit of the law.

It smacks of the TSA at airports rousting granny out of her wheelchair to search her because she might be a terrorist about to board a flight.

[rogue06]

Indeed......... I've been a British Citizen since birth. But some folks in Commonwealth Countries are still subjects.

According to your own government, that's not the case since 1983

[Cow Poke]

I think this is a classic case where there was far more emphasis on the letter of the law rather than the spirit of the law.

It smacks of the TSA at airports rousting granny out of her wheelchair to search her because she might be a terrorist about to board a flight.

But, then, again.... it's possible she might have knitting needles and plans on knitting an Afghan!

[rogue06]

Daniel is still a prominent figure in Judaism and Christianity and symbol of defiance to earthly powers and devotion to God. Daniel being a historical figure or not is immaterial to his relevance. If you wish to critique the historicity of a figure, I would suggest starting with Hypatia of Alexandria.

What the original Cosmos did with Hypatia of Alexandria the remake did with Giordano Bruno.

Revisionist history.