The Ray Epps Thread

[shunyadragon]

Who said it was supposed to be "reliable"? Just observant.

A reliable source is the only useful evidence, and you have none.

The evidence is that there is no evidence he was ever anything else.

That is not evidence of anything, but maybe a falaceous Republican conspiracy theory. Your still making a fallacious 'argument from ignorance' to reach conclusions with no evidence whatsoever.

[shunyadragon]

Again, people who violated curfew were arrested. People who were instigating breaking and entering, who were trying to lead the charge on the Capitol (Epps), were not arrested.

Again, for legal reaons only those that entered the Capital have been arrested and charged. That leaves thundreds of others not arrested as potential FBI informants, because they were not arrested, but in one way or another supported the insurrection against the USA.

[Ronson]

A reliable source is the only useful evidence, and you have none.

Who said it was supposed to be useful evidence? Just observant.

That is not evidence of anything, but maybe a falaceous Republican conspiracy theory. Your still making a fallacious 'argument from ignorance' to reach conclusions with no evidence whatsoever.

I see. So I guess he grew money on trees to support himself and his family and buy ranches and enjoy early retirement. Maybe he's Al Capone and made all his money under the table illegally?

[Ronson]

Again, for legal reaons only those that entered the Capital have been arrested and charged.

False, for the umpteenth time.

That leaves thundreds of others not arrested as potential FBI informants,

Who says? Where's your list of "hundreds of others" not arrested?

because they were not arrested, but in one way or another supported the insurrection against the USA.

Again, where's your evidence? Hearsay?

[NorrinRadd]

I hadn't seen such a video (I'd like to). I do recall one video where a protestor accuses Epps of being an agent, shouting "Fed! Fed!" at him. Epps just slinks away, IIRC.

The "Fed! Fed! Fed!" vid:

[shunyadragon]

False, for the umpteenth time.

Repeating it the umpteenth time does not make it true. Post#14 hqs q reference documenting who was arrested. You have provided nothing to support your accusation.

Again, where's your evidence? Hearsay?

I am not making any claims one way or another concerning Epps and any affiliation with the FBI or any other government agency. Rules of logic and law is that the on making the claim needs to prove their claim. In law it is 'one is innocent until proven guilty,'

[Ronson]

Repeating it the umpteenth time does not make it true. Post#14 hqs q reference documenting who was arrested. You have provided nothing to support your accusation.

I provided a list of people - actual names of people - who were arrested on January 6 at the Capitol for curfew. You have your Qanon earplugs inserted too tightly.

I am not making any claims one way or another concerning Epps and any affiliation with the FBI or any other government agency. Rules of logic and law is that the on making the claim needs to prove their claim. In law it is 'one is innocent until proven guilty,'

You're making claims of "hundreds of others not arrested" without proving your claim.

[shunyadragon]

I provided a list of people - actual names of people - who were arrested on January 6 at the Capitol for curfew. You have your Qanon earplugs inserted too tightly.

No complete list of names provided for simple curfew violations. Being arrested for curfew was NOT what my reference to. Your reference was useless beyond belief. There were many arrested for serious charges in the list like assaulting Federal Officers, but Epps was not accused of any major charge like entering the Capital or assaulting a Federal Officer.

Do you have any record of Epps committing a significant crime.

You're making claims of "hundreds of others not arrested" without proving your claim.

The subject of the thread is Epps. Again . . . I am not making any claims one way or another concerning Epps and any affiliation with the FBI or any other government agency. Rules of logic and law is that the on making the claim needs to prove their claim. In law it is 'one is innocent until proven guilty,'

Please respond.

My source covered that. There were thousands at the insurrection and only those who entered the Capital were considered for charges like assaulted Federal Officers beyond simple foolish curfew violations,

[Ronson]

No complete list of names provided for simple curfew violations. Being arrested for curfew was NOT what my reference to. Your reference was useless beyond belief. There were many arrested for serious charges in the list like assaulting Federal Officers, but Epps was not accused of any major charge like entering the Capital or assaulting a Federal Officer.

Do you have any record of Epps committing a significant crime.

https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?...%20under%20the



Significantly more serious than curfew (who were arrested on January 6 at the Capitol).

The subject of the thread is Epps. Again . . . I am not making any claims one way or another concerning Epps and any affiliation with the FBI or any other government agency. Rules of logic and law is that the on making the claim needs to prove their claim. In law it is 'one is innocent until proven guilty,'

Please respond.

I have never in my life witnessed anything "proven" on an Internet discussion board. Like your "hundreds" that weren't arrested; it's just an assertion.

My source covered that. There were thousands at the insurrection and only those who entered the Capital were considered for charges like assaulted Federal Officers beyond simple foolish curfew violations,

Your source? The FBI link often points to "accompanying documents" which are not included, so the charges aren't listed because they are in the accompanying documents. Your other sources in the post are Snopes and Rumble, which are worthless.

[shunyadragon]

https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?...%20under%20the



Significantly more serious than curfew (who were arrested on January 6 at the Capitol).

Excellent definition of those involved in the Jan. 6 insurrection in the Capital Riot. Out of the thousands involved in the Jan.6 less that 1000 are consider subject to being charged with serious crimes,

I have never in my life witnessed anything "proven" on an Internet discussion board. Like your "hundreds" that weren't arrested; it's just an assertion.

Logical arguments can and have been subject of 'proof' if the line of reasoning is sufficient to accept the conclusions. There are standards of evidence in both logical and legal arguments which you have not met in your argument.

Regardless of whether you can 'prove' anything or provide the equivalent to a legal case against Epps being an FBI informant the problem remains is you have presented absolutely no evidence that Epps was an FBI informant out of the thousands who participated and not arrested nor charged with anything. Your getting lost in numbers and NOT addressing whether there is evidence of Epps being an FBI informant.

Your source? The FBI link often points to "accompanying documents" which are not included, so the charges aren't listed because they are in the accompanying documents. Your other sources in the post are Snopes and Rumble, which are worthless.

Source: https://time.com/6133336/jan-6-capitol-riot-arrests-sentences/

More than 840 people have been arrested for storming the U.S. Capitol building on Jan. 6, 2021, with charges ranging from obstruction of an official proceeding to assault. But 17 months after the attempted insurrection, a significant number of rioters are still awaiting their sentencing.

Only around a quarter of those arrested—185 individuals—have received criminal sentences, while the rest are waiting for their trials or haven’t yet reached plea agreements. According to the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the District of Columbia, 80 defendants were sentenced to periods of incarceration, with longer prison terms for those who engaged in violence or threats. So far, the median prison sentence for the Jan. 6 rioters is 45 days. An additional 57 rioters have been sentenced to periods of home detention, while most sentences have included fines, community service and probation for low-level offenses like illegally parading or demonstrating in the Capitol, which is a misdemeanor.

Hundreds of additional cases are expected to be adjudicated in the coming months, with a number of sentencing hearings already on the calendar this fall.

© Copyright Original Source

How many people were involved in the Jan. 6 insurrection?:

Source: https://news.yahoo.com/jan-6-numbers-120024334.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall

armed with Molotov cocktails and dressed in tactical gear, storm the nation’s Capitol and violently clash with police. Spurred on by then-President Trump, rioters had traveled from far and wide to stop Congress from certifying the results of the 2020 presidential election.

Hundreds involved in the siege have been arrested, but many remain at large as officials piece together what happened on Jan. 6, 2021.

The day began with a rally to bolster Trump’s false claim that the 2020 presidential race was stolen from him. Before Congress certified election results, thousands of Trump supporters gathered on the National Mall, just south of the White House, and listened for hours as some of Trump’s most prominent defenders, including his personal lawyer, former New York Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani, promoted the falsehood.

Rally organizers told the National Park Service that they anticipated 30,000 people would attend. Law enforcement said the crowd size ahead of the protest was possibly as much as 80,000, according to then-Army Secretary Ryan McCarthy. The crowd size at the rally was at least 10,000, according to the Associated Press.

© Copyright Original Source

Less than 1000 were arrested for various reason. It is possible that the thousands that were not arrested were FBI informants.

Can you present any other evidence than the fact that Epps was not arrested?

Actually the claim that there is no evidence Epps was employed is problematic. He may have worked under the radar privately with no records, which is more common than you may think. My father bought and sold used cars out of our home leaving no records that he ever had a business.

[Diogenes]

It remains a fact, yes Epps participated in the insurrection, but did not enter the Capital. Only those that entered the Capital were subject to arrest.

An agent provocateur would not be arrested.

To your claim for those subject to arrest, that has been covered.


https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...imilar-conduct

[rogue06]

I'd be willing to change my mind about Epps if evidence showed up that he was just an idiot and the FBI (for some unknown reason) decided to forgive him. The problem I see is that there is scant-to-no evidence online that this guy has ever earned a living doing anything. He apparently owned a small ranch but didn't run it as a business. How did he purchase this $250,000 ranch? One article said he worked as a "contractor" in Nevada, but there is no evidence he ever held a contractor's license. Epps claims he earned a living renting out his barn for wedding parties. I can't imagine one could retire early and tour the country (which is what Epps told the NYT) from hosting weddings in a barn.

So, adding his lack of a paper trail and his treatment by the FBI, my conclusion is that he worked for them. That's how he made his living, that's how he bought his ranch. His assignment was to go online and become a MAGA so he could blend in on J6, but he didn't blend in well at all.

I don't think that there's much if anything showing that he's F.B.I., but the very different treatment accorded him would naturally raise questions.

[rogue06]

I still remember Ted Cruz asking that FBI chick if the agency had any plants in the crowd on January 6, and she said, "I can't answer that," which essentially means, "Yes."

FWIU, that is precisely how they are trained to respond to any and all questions of that nature -- neither confirm nor deny. It's been that way for decades.

[rogue06]

Only those that entered the Capital were arrested. Curfew arrests are not included and they were minor subject only to fines.

Right off the top of my head I know that is demonstrably untrue. Of the 900+ people charged, over 250 (more than a quarter of them) were charged with assaulting or impeding law enforcement during fights that took place outside the Capitol. There were also some who were charged with assaulting members of the press and damaging their equipment, which, FWICT, was all pretty much outside as well.

A more in-depth query into your claim would almost certainly find even more instances of people being arrested who never entered the Capitol building.

[Mountain Man]

FWIU, that is precisely how they are trained to respond to any and all questions of that nature -- neither confirm nor deny. It's been that way for decades.

Except it would have revealed nothing and would have, in fact, reflected positively on the agency if she said no. By refusing to answer, she may as well have just said yes.