Appeals Court up holds the stay preventing the Trump Immigration ban

[tabibito]

A question for Tass and Star: Over the last 20 years or so how many Muslims immigrants have your countries taken in, let's see the numbers. And I would remind you both that the US takes in more immigrants than any other country in the world, we have the highest immigrant population, you both have some of the lowest, New Zealand is horrible:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ant_population

So we don't need to be lectured by people whose countries are doing next to nothing.

Immigrants make up 25.1% of New Zealand's total population, 27.7% of Australia's , according to that Wikipedia chart. By contrast, 14.3% of U.S.A. population is immigrant. Australia's 2016 intake of refugees at 25 000 contrasts with America's 85 000. Australia's total population 24.5 million: America's 325,571,833 (more than 10 times the population, less than 4 times the number of refugees.)
New Zealand total population: 4,565,185 Refugee intake 1350 (America's population 71 (+ a tad) times New Zealand's, Refugee intake: 63 times New Zealand's)
New Zealand land area = a shade less than that of Texas.

[shunyadragon]

Of course it is vetting. It is only a ban if they can not pass the vetting process - and we don't want those people to come in, do we?

What people?

First, this ban cannot effectively stop terrorists in any form.

Second, Trump has made statements now and in the past that the ban targets Muslims.

Second, Trumps statement recently reinforced this when he said he would allow religious minorities as exceptions under the present ban. His statements in the past also indicated he intended to ban ALL Muslims.

[seer]

Immigrants make up 25.1% of New Zealand's total population, 27.7% of Australia's , according to that Wikipedia chart. By contrast, 14.3% of U.S.A. population is immigrant. Australia's 2016 intake of refugees at 25 000 contrasts with America's 85 000. Australia's total population 24.5 million: America's 325,571,833 (more than 10 times the population, less than 4 times the number of refugees.)
New Zealand total population: 4,565,185 Refugee intake 1350 (America's population 71 (+ a tad) times New Zealand's, Refugee intake: 63 times New Zealand's)
New Zealand land area = a shade less than that of Texas.

Now you are going by per capita the sheer numbers are much greater. And the fact that countries with lower populations have more room for expansion. Now back to my question, how many Muslim Refugees have Australia and New Zealand taken?

[seer]

First, this ban cannot effectively stop terrorists in any form.

It certain can help.

Second, Trump has made statements now and in the past that the ban targets Muslims.

That has nothing to do with the EO.

Second, Trumps statement recently reinforced this when he said he would allow religious minorities as exceptions under the present ban. His statements in the past also indicated he intended to ban ALL Muslims.

That is a lie, there is no ban on 40 other largely Muslim countries. So how can it be a Muslim ban?

[shunyadragon]

It certain can help.

Based on the actual evidence, no.

That has nothing to do with the EO.

It has everything to do with with the EO.

That is a lie, there is no ban on 40 other largely Muslim countries. So how can it be a Muslim ban?

It is a Muslim ban on those countries, because Trump said he would make an exception and allow minorities, in other words non-Muslims.

[seer]

Based on the actual evidence, no.

What are you taking about? Since we have had a number of attacks in this country by Muslims.

It has everything to do with with the EO.

Another lie, where does the EO single out Muslims? Quote please.

It is a Muslim ban on those countries, because Trump said he would make an exception and allow minorities, in other words non-Muslims.

OK, so now it is a Muslim ban in those countries, but that too is a lie, because certain Muslim sects can also be minorities. The EO does not, anywhere - single out religions. But don't worry, there are legal ways to slow walk these requests - so the effect will be the same.

[Starlight]

A question for Tass and Star: Over the last 20 years or so how many Muslims immigrants have your countries taken in, let's see the numbers. And I would remind you both that the US takes in more immigrants than any other country in the world, we have the highest immigrant population, you both have some of the lowest, New Zealand is horrible:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ant_population

So we don't need to be lectured by people whose countries are doing next to nothing.

As tabibito has pointed out the numbers show you are just completely and utterly wrong. NZ and Aus have pretty much the highest immigration rates in the entire western world. They are twice as high as the US rates.

Obviously since NZ has the population and land area of 1 US state, in sheer absolute numbers the US is much bigger, but that's not relevant to the question of whether we are doing our part and doing what we can.

Muslims constitute around 1% of the population in both the US and NZ, and around 2% of the population in Australia. There is a Mosque a few blocks from my house.

However, generally NZ focuses our aid and refugee efforts on the Asia-Pacific region as we feel a particular obligation to care for the various island nations we are geographically close to. (Unlike the US we are not bombing the middle east and thus not causing refugees like the US, and I strongly feel that the the US has a significant moral obligation to clean up its own mess - while the US attacks on the middle east are obviously profoundly evil and incredibly immoral the US's refusal to care for the refugees it itself has created shows a profound level of moral depravity and callousness and complete lack of empathy.) Most of NZ's Muslim refugees come from the Asia-Pacific region due to our local focus - Indonesia is the world's largest Muslim nation, and it is geographically close to Australia so many refugees from Indonesia are able to travel the distance to Australia in boats and seek refugee status there. NZ helps out our close friend Australia by taking some of those refugees, and that tends to be our main source of Muslim refugees.

[Tassman]

Nonsense, he did not ban anyone based on religion,

Trump many times has called for "a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States" and his executive order is clearly intended as the implementation of this reckless policy.

and these are non-citizens in foreign countries, they do not get Constitutional protections.

No immigrants to the USA can be excluded on the grounds of religious belief.

A question for Tass and Star: Over the last 20 years or so how many Muslims immigrants have your countries taken in, let's see the numbers. And I would remind you both that the US takes in more immigrants than any other country in the world, we have the highest immigrant population, you both have some of the lowest, New Zealand is horrible:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ant_population

So we don't need to be lectured by people whose countries are doing next to nothing.

As has been said by others in this thread, Australia and NZ are both doing far more than the US regarding Muslim immigrants and refugees.

[shunyadragon]

<Took out trash talk>

OK, so now it is a Muslim ban in those countries, but that too is a lie, because certain Muslim sects can also be minorities. The EO does not, anywhere - single out religions. But don't worry, there are legal ways to slow walk these requests - so the effect will be the same.

In the reference by Trump this did not include Muslim minorities based on Trump's citations as whole.

[tabibito]

The fact is, supporting refugees costs a heap - and those costs must be borne by the populations accepting refugees. All very well to say "there is plenty of room" - 74% of Australia is desert ... plenty of room, yes. But where does the money come from to make that room inhabitable?

[Starlight]

The fact is, supporting refugees costs a heap - and those costs must be borne by the populations accepting refugees. All very well to say "there is plenty of room" - 74% of Australia is desert ... plenty of room, yes. But where does the money come from to make that room inhabitable?

And it's had huge consequences for the housing market in both NZ and Aus. We've been letting so many people in that it's been impossible to build enough new houses fast enough for everyone, so the house prices have simply gone up and up and up. A report I saw in today's news says NZ has accumulated a shortfall of 60,000 houses (i.e. in addition to all the houses already being built at a frantic pace, we need 60,000 more). The median house price in NZ and Australia's largest cities is now higher than the median in the US's largest city.

Housing policy has now become a major issue in this year's elections here. The political party expected to win the election is promising to "build 100,000 affordable homes for first homebuyers" among a huge suite of other policies aimed at fixing the housing market.

[rogue06]

The fact is, supporting refugees costs a heap - and those costs must be borne by the populations accepting refugees. All very well to say "there is plenty of room" - 74% of Australia is desert ... plenty of room, yes. But where does the money come from to make that room inhabitable?

There's a video on YouTube somewhere which has a man interviewing people at one of the demonstrations protesting Trump's immigration policies who suggests that Trump is going to be cutting benefits to illegals and asking them if they'd be willing to chip in to help or let them move in with them for awhile. He got a lot of hemming and hawing but nobody willing to help

[Starlight]

who suggests that Trump is going to be cutting benefits to illegals

Illegals in the US pay taxes but don't get benefits, so they're a massive help to the economy.

[seer]

Trump many times has called for "a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States" and his executive order is clearly intended as the implementation of this reckless policy.

That is stupid, there is no ban on 40 majority Muslim nations.

No immigrants to the USA can be excluded on the grounds of religious belief.

Again, they do not have Constitutional protections.

As has been said by others in this thread, Australia and NZ are both doing far more than the US regarding Muslim immigrants and refugees.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...Plus-Programme

[Bill the Cat]

Illegals in the US pay taxes but don't get benefits, so they're a massive help to the economy.

An illegal almost killed my daughter this past summer, and he got legal representation and got financial protection from the hospital collecting any money from him.