Southern Baptist leaders covered up sex abuse, kept secret database, report says

[Terraceth]

Just, anecdotally, it seems like the "women can be pastors" issue is the forerunner of a bigger drift to liberalism.

Can you think of any church with a woman as a pastor where that Church is 'conservative'?

Hrm... does the North American Lutheran Church count? (I believe it's the fourth largest Lutheran branch in the US, after the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (liberal), Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (conservative), and Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (really conservative)). They're not as conservative as the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, but they are definitely more conservative than the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. In fact, NALC originally was part of the ELCA, but split off in 2010 because of the ELCA's increasingly liberal stances, particularly in regards to homosexuality.

[NorrinRadd]

Hrm... does the North American Lutheran Church count? (I believe it's the fourth largest Lutheran branch in the US, after the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (liberal), Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (conservative), and Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (really conservative)). They're not as conservative as the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, but they are definitely more conservative than the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. In fact, NALC originally was part of the ELCA, but split off in 2010 because of the ELCA's increasingly liberal stances, particularly in regards to homosexuality.

Interesting. Never heard of that branch. I've only ever heard of ELCA, WELS, and LCMS, and knew ELCA as the flaming libs. Both Lutheran churches in my little borough are ELCA, and my college roomie took his meteorology degree and became an ELCA pastor halfway across the Commonwealth.

[tabibito]

I was refreshing my memory on what "Free" Methodists believe and practice in this regard, and came upon this article that also briefly addresses Wesleyan groups more broadly. It indicates that ordination of women was common practice in Wesleyan/Holiness groups since at least the late 1800s. Perhaps paradoxically, I recall that in the '60s and '70s, the women in the local FM church wore bonnets, presumably based on 1 Cor. 11.

A more complete examination is needed: Wesley died in late 1700s.

Compare the write-up in Christianity Today

[In] June 1771, Wesley endorsed Bosanquet's friend Crosby as a lay preacher, using the phrase "extraordinary call." He gave his stamp of approval to Bosanquet as well. Both women became tireless evangelists, and some 41 women eventually became lay preachers in "Mr. Wesley's Methodism." ... Despite the resolution passed in the Methodist Conference in 1803 (after Wesley's death) that women would not be allowed to preach, Bosanquet/Fletcher continued to preach five sermons a week until she died in her late 70s.

with with the claims in this article addressing the Saddleback/SBC dust-up.

Part of the problem that we face when discussing the ordination of women is that we’ve made it into a dogma, an unquestionable claim. I’ve watched over the years as those who take a more traditional stance are ostracized, called names, and even asked to leave their churches. As a historian, I can’t help but notice that in using this approach these same people would reject John and Charles Wesley, Francis Asbury, and even Phoebe Palmer. Not one of them supported the ordination of women.

[NorrinRadd]

A more complete examination is needed: Wesley died in late 1700s.

Compare the write-up in Christianity Today

[In] June 1771, Wesley endorsed Bosanquet's friend Crosby as a lay preacher, using the phrase "extraordinary call." He gave his stamp of approval to Bosanquet as well. Both women became tireless evangelists, and some 41 women eventually became lay preachers in "Mr. Wesley's Methodism." ... Despite the resolution passed in the Methodist Conference in 1803 (after Wesley's death) that women would not be allowed to preach, Bosanquet/Fletcher continued to preach five sermons a week until she died in her late 70s.

with with the claims in this article addressing the Saddleback/SBC dust-up.

Part of the problem that we face when discussing the ordination of women is that we’ve made it into a dogma, an unquestionable claim. I’ve watched over the years as those who take a more traditional stance are ostracized, called names, and even asked to leave their churches. As a historian, I can’t help but notice that in using this approach these same people would reject John and Charles Wesley, Francis Asbury, and even Phoebe Palmer. Not one of them supported the ordination of women.

Perhaps the whole concept of "ordination" requires investigation.

[Cow Poke]

Hrm... does the North American Lutheran Church count? (I believe it's the fourth largest Lutheran branch in the US, after the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (liberal), Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (conservative), and Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (really conservative)). They're not as conservative as the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, but they are definitely more conservative than the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. In fact, NALC originally was part of the ELCA, but split off in 2010 because of the ELCA's increasingly liberal stances, particularly in regards to homosexuality.

Yeah, I'm really not very knowledgeable about the Lutherans, except that I have become very familiar with several Lutheran Churches (and their pastors) in my area who have left the ELCA over the liberal direction that denomination has taken.

We actually shared our church building with a Lutheran Congregation that left the ELCA, and I have a good number of very good friends from that association.

[rogue06]

So - no examination of the (Southern Baptist) BF&M to see if it aligns closely enough with scripture before making a decision?

Sounds similar to Don't Ask, Don't Tell.

[Cow Poke]

Sounds similar to Don't Ask, Don't Tell.

Pretty much, yes.

The problem is that every Church is an autonomous body - and we pride ourselves on that. So "SBC" doesn't have any say in how particular churches operate.

It's only when something bubbles to the surface that we have to say, "OK, that's enough - you're not us".

The main reason we have two State Conventions in Texas is because the original State Convention (was Baptist General Convention of Texas) refused to deal with a situation where a Church in Austin began proclaiming they were a collection (can't remember the wording) of Gay, Lesbian and Transgender.... long story short, they used to proudly proclaim that they MINISTERED to GLBT, but then their website changed and they said "we ARE....", and they, indeed, had gay and lesbian ministers as staff members on their website.

BGCT refused to deal with it, so that, along with some other reasons, is why we founded the Southern Baptists of Texas Convention. (At whose meeting I have been this week)

[shunyadragon]

Shame on those who would cover up evil or commit evil! And shame on victim blamers who find it too hard to go after the evil perps and hurt the victims instead. Don't they know they will answer to God one day? How can they claim to believe in Jesus and act like that? Stupid evil fools!

Moral Majority? Joins the Roman Church leading the way of sexual abuse and exploitation in all imaginable forms..

[rogue06]

Pretty much, yes.

The problem is that every Church is an autonomous body - and we pride ourselves on that. So "SBC" doesn't have any say in how particular churches operate.

It's only when something bubbles to the surface that we have to say, "OK, that's enough - you're not us".

The main reason we have two State Conventions in Texas is because the original State Convention (was Baptist General Convention of Texas) refused to deal with a situation where a Church in Austin began proclaiming they were a collection (can't remember the wording) of Gay, Lesbian and Transgender.... long story short, they used to proudly proclaim that they MINISTERED to GLBT, but then their website changed and they said "we ARE....", and they, indeed, had gay and lesbian ministers as staff members on their website.

BGCT refused to deal with it, so that, along with some other reasons, is why we founded the Southern Baptists of Texas Convention. (At whose meeting I have been this week)

Maybe a requirement to reaffiliate every few years that includes a copy of the SBC Constitution above where you sign. That way some of those who went from "we cater to" to "we are a part of" might remove themselves.

[Cow Poke]

Maybe a requirement to reaffiliate every few years that includes a copy of the SBC Constitution above where you sign. That way some of those who went from "we cater to" to "we are a part of" might remove themselves.

The "Seven Deadly Words of the Church" come to mind ---- "We've Never Done It That Way Before".

It would require a change to the constitution, and since we only meet 3 days a year, once a year, that's really a long shot.

[Cow Poke]

On another note, I had breakfast yesterday morning with Bart Barber - the newly elected President of the Southern Baptist Convention.

Texas pastor is elected president of Southern Baptist Convention

bart.jpg

The more I get to know him, the more I like him, and have greater confidence in the SBC than I did prior to the Annual Meeting in June.

[rogue06]

The "Seven Deadly Words of the Church" come to mind ---- "We've Never Done It That Way Before".

It would require a change to the constitution, and since we only meet 3 days a year, once a year, that's really a long shot.

I immediately thought of George Carlin's list

[Cow Poke]

I immediately thought of George Carlin's list

I think about that when we discuss technical or scientific names for body parts as opposed to 'profanity'.

We are anti-science and pro swear words!!!!

[rogue06]

I think about that when we discuss technical or scientific names for body parts as opposed to 'profanity'.

We are anti-science and pro swear words!!!!

Ms. (when that was big) Kroto, my art teacher, allowed us to play records as we painted or whatever. One day someone slipped George Carlin's record in and naturally just as George rattled off his list the Vice Principle happened to be walking by.

No. This was one of the times I was not responsible, involved or even had knowledge aforehand of the inclusion of the record in question. Frankly, I'm just a tiny bit disappointed that I wasn't in the loop regarding that.

[Cow Poke]

Ms. (when that was big) Kroto, my art teacher, allowed us to play records as we painted or whatever. One day someone slipped George Carlin's record in and naturally just as George rattled off his list the Vice Principle happened to be walking by.

No. This was one of the times I was not responsible, involved or even had knowledge aforehand of the inclusion of the record in question. Frankly, I'm just a tiny bit disappointed that I wasn't in the loop regarding that.

poop