The Israeli-Palestine conflict

[robrecht]

I recall I used the term in respect of the accursed bloodline. I also used the term in respect of the "fates". I don't recall ever using it as a racial generality = "for jews".

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So quickly you forget:

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In Israel you are a Jew if you were born of a Jewish mother (father's don't count in the determination of whether you are a Jew or not). If your mother is a non-Jew, but your father's mother was a Jew, then you still need to undergo the long process of conversion to be considered a Jew. Once you are considered a Jew, you and your heirs are tainted for eternity (except if you have a Jewish mother and you are male, and you marry a non-Jew then your heirs will not be considered Jews).

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[elam]

Is it?

]I'm not married to the term "final solution", it is just convenient shorthand I encounter frequently and am use to. To me it describes a no-ifs-or-buts finality.

If you reread through this thread you'll note I use the term in multiple contexts but always where there is a finality in a decision making process. To me it is a innocuous term. I might use it is a sentence such as "I felt entrapped by my job. I considered various options but ultimately the final solution was to quit".

Are jews in generally referring to the destruction of the temple in 70AD as the 'final solution'?

Probably not. Though an academic Jew might point you to the period 132-136CE as "the final solution" in a Roman context. or he/she, if seeking a Jewish context, might refer you to the mass muder-suicide at Massada as the Sicarii rebels "final solution".

The fall of Jerusalem and destruction of the 2nd Temple was not a final solution for either the Romans or the Jews (both continued fighting for 66 years or so). The destruction of the 2nd temple had a prophetic function, the final solution in the punishment of the intransigent sons & daughters of the patriarch Jacob (see Deut 28 particularly vs 63-66).

Do you have any citations in support of this?

Sure there are heaps. Just type into google something like "YHWH's final solution". Below are the first two I came across...

Beyond the River Chebar. Studies in Kingship and Eschatology in the Book of Ezekiel by Daniel Block? = page 39 "For Ezekiel eschatological events...are based on YHWH's past actions in history and represent a final solution to the present historical crisis"
https://books.google.com.au/books?id...lution&f=false

or...

The Understanding of Adultery in the Hebrew Bible: A Critical Survey by Alexander Izuchukwu Abasili = "Abimelech's response to YHWH's command and is recorded in Gn 20:8-16 and serves as the final solution that disolves the narrative tension of the entire pericope..."
https://books.google.com.au/books?id...lution&f=false

[elam]

Elam doesn't take correction well. He has this odd tendency to become abusive when someone has the temerity to correct him.

??? Where have I been abusive to anyone? I did make a remark concerning "prissy corridors" but that probably went over the head of some people..

I as yet have not received any corrections to any of my posts. Lots of remarks about my word choices but no corrections or suggestions for alternatives...

This thread was hijacked pages ago. There has been little discussion of the OP.

Go eat some bacon...

[elam]

The simple truth of the matter is that you have implied that Israel is pursuing a Nazi-like 'final solution' upon the Palestinian peoples,

which is way over-the-top.

It would be if it it hadn't been fully documented by the British and was just hear-say.

That is not to defend all of the actions and policies of Israel toward the Palestinians, but there is simply no just comparison between Hitler and Ben-Gurion

Both were National Socialists and both had in mind the elimination of a particular group from their lands (admittedly the Nazis targeted a range of ethnicities). Apart from that I agree they had little in common.

Netanyahu.

I've never figured the guy out. Currently he is under investigation by the Jewish authorities.

You should be more careful of your rhetoric.

I just cite verifiable, historical facts. Read my posts they are quite passionless.

I don't have a pony in the race, you seem to own one of the herd (?)

[elam]

So quickly you forget:

In Israel you are a Jew if you were born of a Jewish mother (father's don't count in the determination of whether you are a Jew or not). If your mother is a non-Jew, but your father's mother was a Jew, then you still need to undergo the long process of conversion to be considered a Jew. Once you are considered a Jew, you and your heirs are tainted for eternity (except if you have a Jewish mother and you are male, and you marry a non-Jew then your heirs will not be considered Jews).

What was my context?

Have a read of the commentary on the book of Ezra, notice the authors use of the idea of a tainted bloodline.
http://www.all-creatures.org/hr/what-11.htm

"In the generations that followed, the descendants of those who returned from exile married, raised families and centered their religious life around the altar at Jerusalem. And for those who married other pure-blooded Jews there were no problems. However, some of them were marrying those whose bloodlines had been tainted by intermarriage. The religious leaders were very disturbed by this trend, but were unable to do anything about it until a priest named Ezra arrived in Jerusalem...

...A proclamation was issued throughout Judah and Jerusalem for all the exiles to assemble in Jerusalem. Anyone who failed to appear within three days would forfeit all his property. . .and would himself be expelled for the assembly.

Under the impetus of that threat, all the Jewish males assembled in the Temple square. There they were given details of the purge that was about to take place. They were to turn in any members of their family who were tainted by non-Jewish blood

In a strict observation of Ezra, the person I earlier referred to as having undergone the long process of conversion to Judaism, should have been cast out of the community. However, the taint of Judaism neutralises the bloodline contamination of being of mixed blood. Imu, it is like a tinture...

I and my Jewish friends see no problem with the concept of "tainted bloodlines". They introduced me to the range of ideas that the idea encapsulates. The trouble is uninformed Gentiles take umbrage at Jewish ideas, so I'll have to consult with my Jewish friends for an alternative word, maybe one in Hebrew so apart from Jews few will know what I am talking about..

[robrecht]

No, not nearly subtle enough. Where are the Israeli gas chambers and ovens? I'm especially interested in seeing such death camps set up in all the foreign countries invaded by Israel.

[robrecht]

What was my context?

As I've already pointed out, your context was determining who was and who was not Jewish, and more specifically, whom you considered to be tainted with Jewish blood.

Have a read of the commentary on the book of Ezra, notice the authors use of the idea of a tainted bloodline.
http://www.all-creatures.org/hr/what-11.htm ...

This does not help your case. If you do not intend the same negative connotation, then you need to look for another example.

I and my Jewish friends see no problem with the concept of "tainted bloodlines". They introduced me to the range of ideas that the idea encapsulates. The trouble is uninformed Gentiles take umbrage at Jewish ideas, so I'll have to consult with my Jewish friends for an alternative word, maybe one in Hebrew so apart from Jews few will know what I am talking about..

Are you and your proverbial Jewish friends native English speakers familiar with the connotations of words? And before you consider me an uninformed Gentile, recall that it was I who informed you that some Jewish traditions (eg, Karaite and Reform) that do take into account patrilineal descent.

[rogue06]

While all of that may be true it certainly was not even remotely close to the type of government that the Israelis formed.

[seer]

While all of that may be true it certainly was not even remotely close to the type of government that the Israelis formed.

All this ancient history while the PA and Hamas STILL refuse to agree that the Jews have a right to a state.

[robrecht]

All this ancient history while the PA and Hamas STILL refuse to agree that the Jews have a right to a state.

It really is not ancient history. The right of return (or of reparations) of the Palestinian refugees, and their descendants, will remain one of the biggest sticking points in any peace plan.

[seer]

It really is not ancient history. The right of return (or of reparations) of the Palestinian refugees, and their descendants, will remain one of the biggest sticking points in any peace plan.

I was speaking of Elam's specific quotes, and the right of return to Israel proper is a non-starter, and it should be.

[robrecht]

I was speaking of Elam's specific quotes, and the right of return to Israel proper is a non-starter, and it should be.

I suspect you might not feel that way if you or your parents had lost your land.

[seer]

I suspect you might not feel that way if you or your parents had lost your land.

Probably not, but if they allowed the right of return, by demographics, Israel would be non Jewish within a generation.

[robrecht]

Probably not, but if they allowed the right of return, by demographics, Israel would be non Jewish within a generation.

So, it would not be right for the UN and freedom fighters to force you off your land, but it is OK to do that to Palestinians?

[seer]

So, it would not be right for the UN and freedom fighters to force you off your land, but it is OK to do that to Palestinians?

Yes, to give the Jews a defensible homeland after all they have been through. Arabs have the rest of the Middle East which is vastly larger than tiny little Israel. Never mind the fact that every country that the Arabs/Muslim rule is totalitarian.