The Israeli-Palestine conflict

[elam]

That is your opinion, which in the context is wrong. The Isaiah 11:11,12 and Jeremiah 31:8 quotes can not be speaking of return from a single country.

I noticed you conveniently dropped vs10 - guess it was inconvenient to your theory.

I never advocated that Isaiah 11:10-12 referred to a single country, given vs11 it would be stupid to do so, What I have previously noted is that Isaiah 11:10-12 is inclusive of the Gentiles, the Nations and the Jewish diaspora - all of whom were spread over multiple countries. The inclusion of Gentiles & the Nations excludes Isaiah as being a proof text for the foundation of modern Israel which actively excludes the gathering of Gentiles & the Nations to its lands.

Jeremiah 31:8 doesn't help your cause either. Under Nebuchadnezzar the boundaries of the Babylonian Empire reached as far as Cilicia in the north to Egypt and Arabia in the south, and from Cyprus and the Mediterranean coastal cities in the west to Media and Persia in the east. One Empire with multiple vassal nations. See the link below to get an idea of the vastness of the babylonian Empire.
http://www.bible-history.com/maps/03...an-empire.html

[Leonhard]

It is the standard terminology used in academia & diplomacy - and regularly used by the Jews. Get a thicker skin...

Is it? Are jews in generally referring to the destruction of the temple in 70AD as the 'final solution'?

Do you have any citations in support of this?

[elam]

You won't answer because you know that living in Israel as an Arab would be far better, and safer. Israel is the most free and democratic country in the Middle East, by far. Most of the other countries in the area are Islamic hell holes and totalitarian.

Guess you don't read the israeli press. There are charitable organisations that try to assist the Israeli-Arabs. There are Israeli-Arab communities that have no electricity, town water or sewage compliments of the Israeli authorities. Just a fact that is easily verifiable.

[elam]

elam, could you not use phrases like "jewry" and "final solution"? It's a little creepy.

"Jewry" is the word used in Jewish publications to refer to the Jews of the world. Wouldn't it be a rejection of the Jews if I rejected their terminology because you find it creepy. Wouldn't we then be accused of being anti-Semitic?.

As for the phrase "final solution" I just noticed I've used it in several contexts: The Nazi solution, YHWH's destruction of Jerusalem and the worldwide dispersal of the Jews, the European solution to what they perceived as the Jewish problem, the UN solution to what to do about the Palestinians & the Zionists, the British "White Paper" that influenced British policy in Mandated Palestine and the solution that various Israeli (Jewish) advocacy groups are currently proposing to bring peace to the region. In context each saw/see their solution as the final resolution of a problem.

Without resorting to verbose phrases I can't think of a better phrase than "the final solution" of xyz, where xyz gives the context. Can you suggest an alternative phrase? I trust that you and the numerous persons who amended your post will be able to suggest something intelligible...

All I can think of as an alternative is "the ultimate solution" but I doubt you'd find that acceptable either...

[robrecht]

"Jewry" is the word used in Jewish publications to refer to the Jews of the world. Wouldn't it be a rejection of the Jews if I rejected their terminology because you find it creepy. Wouldn't we then be accused of being anti-Semitic?.

As for the phrase "final solution" I just noticed I've used it in several contexts: The Nazi solution, YHWH's destruction of Jerusalem and the worldwide dispersal of the Jews, the European solution to what they perceived as the Jewish problem, the UN solution to what to do about the Palestinians & the Zionists the British "White Paper" that influenced British policy in Mandated Palestine and the solution that various Jewish advocacy groups are currently proposing to bring peace to the region. In context each saw/see their solution as the final resolution of a problem.

Without resorting to verbose phrases I can't think of a better phrase than "the final solution" of xyz, where xyz gives the context. Can you suggest an alternative phrase? I trust that you and the numerouis persons who amended your post will be able to suggest something intelligible...

The simple truth of the matter is that you have implied that Israel is pursuing a Nazi-like 'final solution' upon the Palestinian peoples, which is way over-the-top. That is not to defend all of the actions and policies of Israel toward the Palestinians, but there is simply no just comparison between Hitler and Ben-Gurion or Netanyahu. You should be more careful of your rhetoric.

[elam]

Why are all these Jews leaving Elam? Why don't they feel safe in France - France for goodness sake.

The article you cited is self explanatory = "insecurity had been a "catalyst" for many Jews who were already thinking of leaving".

Could the impetus have anything to do with the refugee crises caused by Moslem immigration to France. I'm sure many Frenchmen are looking around for somewhere to escape the chaos. The Russian press reports that Russia is experiencing an influx of immigrants from all over Europe.

I was reading through the Israeli press the other day. The Israeli press expressed the concern of the Israeli army that once the Syrian & Iraq conflicts are resolved the Arab focus will turn back to Israel. They are worried that they'll have to confront a consortium of well resourced armies...

If I was a Jew and had a choice I'd go anywhere but Israel. Russia is offering free land in its far eastern provinces. A possibility if one doesn't mind very cold winters.

[elam]

Oh stop, Elam asked for the link I posted earlier, I linked three more. The scriptures are there for all to see.

Just proves you don't know scripture and so can't quote it! Ruins any credibility you could have...

[robrecht]

... If I was a Jew and had a choice I'd go anywhere but Israel. Russia is offering free land in its far eastern provinces. A possibility if one doesn't mind very cold winters.

But for those Jews who are not afraid of fighting for and securing their own homeland with just means--you have no objection to their doing so, correct?

[elam]

How is it that all that is in the past tense and no longer exists, but is treated as though it is a present

It is very well documented that several Zionist groups used terrorismwith the objective of eliminating all Arabs (both Muslim & Christian) from Mandated Palestine. From 1948 the Zionists actively appropriated land allotted to the Arabs by the UN.

From about 1967 Palestinians are accused of being terrorists for attempting to reclaim the land that was stolen from them.

Doesn't compute for me.

[seer]

Just proves you don't know scripture and so can't quote it! Ruins any credibility you could have...

Are you completely deluded? I gave the text and showed why Isaiah 11:11,12 and Jeremiah 31:8 quotes for instance can not be speaking of return from a single country like Babylon:

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post407524

You are just so anti Semitic that you will deny scripture.

[seer]

If I was a Jew and had a choice I'd go anywhere but Israel. Russia is offering free land in its far eastern provinces. A possibility if one doesn't mind very cold winters.

Yes, anything to remove the Jews from their historical homeland.

[One Bad Pig]

Are you completely deluded?

Elam doesn't take correction well. He has this odd tendency to become abusive when someone has the temerity to correct him.

[Leonhard]

While I agree with a lot of elam's criticism on The State of Israel's actions. I can't get behind his use of the word 'tainted' for jews, or 'jewry', or 'final solution'. His defense of these words are very thin. And while a case can be made that he's not anti-semitic, the use of these words does hurt his case. It wouldn't cost him anything to change it out, so I don't understand why he doesn't.

[elam]

But for those Jews who are not afraid of fighting for and securing their own homeland with just means--you have no objection to their doing so, correct?

Sure.I'm big on self defense, even bigger on confronting injustice.

Joining the Israeli military might turn out to be harder than you think. The Israeli armed forces suggest that any future conflict with the Arabs will not involve infantry or motorised artillery to any significant extent. What will be required will be small units of highly skilled SAS (Special Armed Services).

The Israeli armed services have identified that the greatest threat to Israeli security is Hezbollah. Hezbollah uses guerilla warfare tactics & employs psychology as their most effective weapon. The Israeli military suggest Hezbollah isn't interested in blowing up things, their aim is to become an irritant. Their target is the morale of the Israeli people & the military.

The Israeli generals agree that you can't target a phantom army who operate on the principle of high mobility - now you see them, now you don't. All Israeli generals agree that Hezbollah won the 2006 war - by just sapping Israel's will.

At least one Israeli general points out that the reason Israel withdrew from the 2006 war in Lebanon was Hezbollah embedded itself with the civilian population, so Israel couldn't eliminate them without alienating the whole world. He advocates that in the next war with the Arabs, Israel will treat every Arab, whether they be man, woman & child, as a combatant and all combatants will be eliminated.

The Israeli air force suggests that previous wars with the Arabs were won by the use of Israeli air power. However, they are fearful that the enemy now has access to anti-aircraft weapons and Israel's military effectiveness will be diminished.

There are of heap of articles on the prospect of war in the Israeli press & Israeli focused mags. Below I've provided a link to one I found extensive in its analysis...

[elam]

I can't get behind his use of the word 'tainted' for jews

I recall I used the term in respect of the accursed bloodline. I also used the term in respect of the "fates". I don't recall ever using it as a racial generality = "for jews".

'jewry',

This word is so common in Jewish literature, newspapers, accademia etc, your objection to the word just makes me cry laughing. Admittedly, while the term is used widely amoungst the Jews & Western academia, I guess in the prissy corridors it is an unfamiliar term.

or 'final solution'

I covered my explanation of this phrase in post #79 in a reply to Spartacus...
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post408758

...while a case can be made that [Elam is] not anti-semitic, the use of these words does hurt his case.

Imo, if it hurts my case then the reader is suppressing a prejudice of their own against the Jews.

Actually, if you go back to the OP and read my posts I rarely give a personal opinion. Mostly, I've quoted historical outlines, documents & statistics. Often I will summarize a source & provide the URL so you can read the text in full. So, as far as I can tell I haven't presented a case to answer, though I guess it could be perceived that I have built a case and the jury (the posters on this thread) has delivered a verdict against Israel. Most interestingly...

It wouldn't cost him anything to change it out, so I don't understand why he doesn't.

As I've said a few times, if someone can suggest alternative terms and my Jewish friends don't find offense with them, I'll use them (Jewry excluded - it would be anti-Jewish to reject the standard terminology of the Jews)..